Pullman coaches

[Fazy]

I have some Pullman coaches 4 Bachmann Mk1's and though they never ran on the Midland main line I would like to build a typical rake. However as pullmams coaches tend to have names such as parly pantry or kitchen. How many of what do I need to build a rake.  And which hornby ones can I put in with the Mk1's ? I am to buy a one off Hornbys new SR 4-6-2's when available. Nobody tell LC&DR though. ;)

[GeoFF03]

From what I understand, Pullman cars ran in two car sets consisting of a kitchen and parlour.  These would alternate along the train. Again, based on what I've read, no Mk1 parlour brakes were constructed, so older coaches I.E. those made by Hornby, would be used instead.

[Fazy]

Cheers for that Geoff03. 

Seems so simple. don't know why I didn't know that. 

 

 

[Fazy]

Where do the bars come into the formation? 

[VESPA]

Here is the brake car that you need to start.....    https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/wagons-coaches/passenger-coaches/pullman-third-class-parlour-brake-car.html    I would put the bar in the centre.

[Fazy]

Cheers vespa. That's one of the new one's isn't it. 

Looks like Hornby getting some more custom from me.

Crosti's ex LMS horse box. 4 ex LMS none corridor coaches and now some pullmans.  Not a bad year so far. 

Do I get shears in Hornby now.

[VESPA]

I have been searching through my downloaded train photos that I refer to and can say the in 3 of them, that the full flat sided brake coaches are evident behind DP2, Falcon and and a class 31.

[VESPA]

Fazy, before ordering the coaches check that the Pullman crest is the later version as on the Mk1's.

[Fazy]

Full flat? Now if I remember rightly that's the last new pullmans. And not the new K's of this year.  

 

As you can tell I now nothing about the pullmans other then they are very pretty and not used on the LMR

[Fazy]

Got that wrong looking at the link  and there in black and white it says k type 

Dho

 

[Alessio]

Is there any reason why Pullman brake coaches were always 3rd class?

[Fazy]

There's gangway 1st full brake. Two of which still survive but need restoring. But can't seem to find anything else.   

 

[Wobblinwheel]

Ok, can somebody refresh my memory? What did the "guard" in brake coaches and "vans" do? Did he actually have access to a manual "brake" of some description? When was he supposed to use it?

[VESPA]

Depending on the person on duty they would check the tickets and store safely bicycles and large items of luggage. Parcels may find their way in there and he would unload them at the relevant stop. There was a large hand wheel in the compartment that was in effect a manual brake, which would be applied if required.

[GeoFF03]

Ok, can somebody refresh my memory? What did the "guard" in brake coaches and "vans" do? Did he actually have access to a manual "brake" of some description? When was he supposed to use it?

A guards duties on a goods/freight train differed from those of a passenger guard (or conductor in the USA).  Goods stock was generaly loose coupled using three link chain, and many wagons were un-fitted (no vacuum or air brakes) so he had to assist with braking on grades and when taking up coupling slack when pulling away.  Loose coupling and un-fitted stock lasted until the 1970s' or even a little later before they were finaly fazed out.

[Wobblinwheel]

Ok, can somebody refresh my memory? What did the "guard" in brake coaches and "vans" do? Did he actually have access to a manual "brake" of some description? When was he supposed to use it?

A guards duties on a goods/freight train differed from those of a passenger guard (or conductor in the USA).  Goods stock was generaly loose coupled using three link chain, and many wagons were un-fitted (no vacuum or air brakes) so he had to assist with braking on grades and when taking up coupling slack when pulling away.  Loose coupling and un-fitted stock lasted until the 1970s' or even a little later before they were finaly fazed out.

Sounds like what we would call a "brakeman" over here. Thanks for the info!

[LCDR]

 

A goods guard’s duties were somewhat more involved than that of simply operating the brake in the van.

 

Before the journey the guard was required to assess the train, and compile a train list, telling the driver about the train weight and maximum permitted speed of the vehicles, and about any restrictions particularly if there were any 'out of gauge' or exceptional load vehicles on the train. He gathered this information from labels or tickets attached to each wagon. He then had to check the Loads Manual to see if his train was too long or too heavy for the route, and that none of the wagons exceeded the authorised axle weights.  He examined the train to ensure that all doors were closed and secure, there were no loose ropes or tarpaulin sheets, or leakage of goods.

 

After starting the guard would keep a written journal showing the passing and stopping times, details of delays or mishaps on route, and any wagons attached or detached at intermediate places. If wagons were attached or detached a fresh train list was required and given to the driver.  If a train had to descend a very steep gradient the guard had not only to assist using the guards van brake, but to ‘pin down’ wagon brakes on unfitted vehicles. This was a very skilful exercise which needed close co-operation between the guard and driver.  As the train gently started down the hill the guard would apply the lever hand brakes on each wagon until the driver sounded the loco whistle to confirm he had enough stopping power. The guard then re-joined the van, but at the bottom he then had to get off again and release all the wagon brakes.

 

During the journey he had to keep a good look out for any signs of mishap to his train or to any other trains as they passed. He had to watch out for signals (in case the driver ignored them!) and when passing stations and signal-boxes in case staff there needed to convey any messages to him.

 

At intermediate sidings and sometimes at destination the guard would be responsible for attaching and detaching wagons and controlling the shunting with hand signals and by his hand lamp and whistle, especially at night or in bad visibility. He had to secure wagons he left behind, and if the engine was detached he also had to secure enough wagons to prevent it running away.

 

Before going home he had to submit his journal to the station master or supervisor and also written reports of any mishaps or unusual occurrences.

 

It was always understood that the Guard was the person ‘in charge’ of a train.

 

 

[LCDR]

 A passenger guard's duties were somewhat simpler, although no less responsible. All passenger trains were continuously braked although the guard did have a brake valve in his van he was not supposed to use it except in an emergency, and normally the driver did all the braking. He still needed to assess the train before starting off and telling the driver about the number of vehicles and the weight. He also kept a journal of times and occurences. He was responsible for securing mail, parcels and other objects given to him at stations for onward carriage.

 

During the journey he was also required to observe signals, stations and signal-boxes. To help him do this coaches were fitted with 'periscopes' so that he could look over the tops of the coaches to the locomotive and beyond.  If you look at Mark 1 carriages these are visible on the roof over each guards van. Older carriages had 'duckets' on their sides, just like goods brake vans, and some very old ones actually had a raised 'observatory' or 'birdcage'  where the guard sat on an elevated chair. 

 

The guard had to ensure that all doors were closed before the train started and before he waved his green flag to actually tell the driver to start.  He was supposed to call out the name of stations as they arrived, but in practice very few guards ever did this!

 

It was the fireman's responsibility to attach and detach the locomotive, but if coaches were attached or detached en-route the guard had to put on his overalls, and gloves, and get stuck in.

 

The requirement for looking out for signals was discontinued in the 1970s and guards were then required to carry out commercial duties like checking tickets.

If the locomotive was detached the guard used the hand brake in his van to stop the train rolling away.

[LCDR]

 How do I know all this ?  I have been a guard!

[Graskie]

Yet more wonderful, informative and fascinating detail, LC. We should all feel very privileged to have you on this forum.  

[VESPA]

 How do I know all this ?  I have been a guard!

Can't argue with that then.

[Wobblinwheel]

Thanks for the info. Very informative! Are brake vans, coaches, and guards still used today?

[GeoFF03]

Thanks for the info. Very informative! Are brake vans, coaches, and guards still used today?

Goods brake vans have not been in regular use since the 70s' or there abouts.  They were discontinued following the switch from vacuum braking to all air brakes, plus the withdrawl of un-fitted stock.  In the early days of the transition, they would travel in the rear cab of diesel locos.  Guards are still carried on passenger trains, though their duties and job title may have changed (train manager?). 

[LCDR]

Guards vans still find a use on heritage railways, especially where they run 'demonstration freight trains'.

 

On the national network they are all but extinct. At one time they were only retained for goods trains that had to be propelled for a short dfistance. Often on colliery or dock branch lines. These brake vans were specially fitted out with air operated warning horns and painted with yellow and black warning stripes. The guard and driver would be in radio contact throughout the move.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/9c20354d56580951cbb04811bbd73083.jpg

 

These two were kept at Seaham for propelling into colliery sidings. The big tank is an air reservoir for working the two tone horn just visible underneath it.

[LCDR]

Many passenger trains today run with a driver only, and no guard. This is particularly common on suburban routes. For safety the drivers are provided with means of looking along the platform befgore closing the automatic doors and starting off. Sometimes this is simply a huge mirror, but nowadays CCTV is used at most stations.

 

Only local and rural services (Northern / Arriva Wales etc.)  and the InterCity type express trains have guards , nowadays usually titled'Conductor' ,  'Senior Conductor' or 'Train Manager'. Some of the old hands still use the term 'guard' and use this in their on-train public address announcements.

 

One important role for the old guards was to protect the train in case of a mishap, to prevent a second train smashing into his.  This he did with fog-signals (AKA detonators), flags and lamps, in theory going back a mile or more to warn oncoming train drivers, and also to accompany an assisting engine. .  This wasusually  'belt and braces' because the signalling system should prevent a second train following until the first had cleared the section complete with tail lamp. But where there were two or more parallel lines in the same direction and a derailment was obstructing an adjacent line the wreckage might not be detected.  And of course it was not unknown for signalmen or drivers to make a mistake.  Today with all trains fitted with radio, and most lines fitted with continuous train detection systems, the human error element has been reduced to a very low level so the need for a guard to carry out this duty is now virtually eliminated.