Train speed issues

[Toyboy3b]

Hi guys, not sure if this is the right place for this one but here goes. I purchased a western master set and after eventually getting it sorted I have added a second loco to the collection, a Gadwell with TTS.

My issue is that when I set them to run at the same speed the gadwell runs much faster, the speed difference makes it seem that the Gadwell is still running in MPH even though it is set to and reads at KPH. Can anyone offer me any help on this one? Cheers

[Yelrow]

Toyboy, hi, welcome to the forum. Somebody better than i will give you fuller details, but for now, the speed settings are listed in Gadwell instructions. They show which cv, you need to adjust. I presume you have set them on different cv nos, as both are preset to cv 3. If you have done this, then , you can adjust as i said before, on Railmaster.  When i bought my first set with 2 locos, i had similar probs, as tornado, much quicker than diesel. john

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

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[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

Have you ensured that scale speed operation is set within RailMaster's settings.  This ensures that all locos from the database (where speed-related CVs have not been modified) run at approximately the same speed.

[Toyboy3b]

Thanks guys, I did finally manage to give the two locos each a CV (that was the first headache) and i'll check those things out for a start. I was just a bit suspicious because the speeds matched the MPH/KPH conversion so perfectly but it looks like they just require adjustment. Cheers.

[Fishmanoz]

Think you may have misinterpreted the replies toyboy.  For a start, HRMS is Hornby Railmaster Support and you should follow their instructions.  They tell you that, given you set up your locos in the RM database, and you do this using the correct catalogue R number, they should all run at the same scale speed on the same throttle setting, given you have setup your RM to run at scales speeds in Settings.

 

Also, if you think about having to set loco IDs, not CVs, and set them to different values which are not 03, John's post makes a little more sense.

[Toyboy3b]

Thanks guys this is starting to make more sense ( Sorry, I swear I'm not a techno spaz I'm actually the opposite but there is a lot of new lingo to pick up on so bear with me). I may not have explained the story fully.I had the loco that comes with the western master kit running on ID3, when I get the new loco I programmed them with their own IDs, the Gadwell with TTS wasn't on the list but the Gadwell with the same R number without TTS was there so I picked that, I haven't changed anything from standard with regards to CVs except for the IDs. But the deeper I dig the more possibilities arise, I will list below what I suspect as possible issues.* I couldn't find the R number for the loco included in the western master kit, I picked one from the list of similar locos (there are quite a few) but it seems now that the loco runs slower than when it was set on ID 3 although the top speed is listed as the same, but this could just be because the Gadwell is so fast compared.*The Gadwell selected off the list isn't the TTS one.*The western master loco now seems to run with a tiny "jerk" in it's motion that wasn't there when it was set to ID3, I may have stuffed something up there.I'm open to all ideas and possibilities and any help is appreciated.

[Yelrow]

Toyboy, what computer do you have, and what windows. There has been a recent Railmaster update, which put new locos in, but if everything is running well, as is, i would be reluctant, to upgrade, as you can type these locos in. john

[Toyboy3b]

I'm on V1.62 of RM and running a windows 7 laptop.

[Toyboy3b]

My spacing disappeared, lets try that again.

Thanks guys this is starting to make more sense ( Sorry, I swear I'm not a techno spaz I'm actually the opposite but there is a lot of new lingo to pick up on so bear with me).

I may not have explained the story fully.I had the loco that comes with the western master kit running on ID3, when I get the new loco I programmed them with their own IDs, the Gadwell with TTS wasn't on the list but the Gadwell with the same R number without TTS was there so I picked that, I haven't changed anything from standard with regards to CVs except for the IDs. But the deeper I dig the more possibilities arise, I will list below what I suspect as possible issues.

*I couldn't find the R number for the loco included in the western master kit, I picked one from the list of similar locos (there are quite a few) but it seems now that the loco runs slower than when it was set on ID 3 although the top speed is listed as the same, but this could just be because the Gadwell is so fast compared.

*The Gadwell selected off the list isn't the TTS one.

*The western master loco now seems to run with a tiny "jerk" in it's motion that wasn't there when it was set to ID3, I may have stuffed something up there.I'm open to all ideas and possibilities and any help is appreciated

[Yelrow]

Toyboy, perfect set up, same as me apart from elite. Stay with that. You are aware that these locos are better, if you run them in. I run mine for about 1 hour, at various speeds and directions, before attaching anything. Give them a fair trial before you adlust anything. Thats my advice john

[Fishmanoz]

Toyboy, it would be a very unusual fault indeed if changing loco ID did anything to change the speed characteristics built into the Hornby setup for any loco in its database. 

 

And john is right that if you download the latest version 1.62 from the link at the top of the forum, it should have all of your locos in its database.

[RDS]

All of my Loco's without exception, that have Coach Lights, increase their speed (significantly enough to notice it) when I put the lights ON.  Yes on, I think I could understand it if they slowed down with the Lights on.

[Chrissaf]

@Toyboy3b

My spacing disappeared, lets try that again.

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The loss of your paragraph spacing is a known issue for us posting regulars. To get a gap between paragraphs you have to insert TWO carriage returns - that is to say put in TWO blank lines between paragraphs in your editing window. It shouldn't be the case, but this issue is just a quirk of this forum.

[WilliamDavid]

Are the loco speeds supposed to be accurate?

Comparing various Hornby locos, 40mph, for example, is faster on one than on another.

[Fishmanoz]

There are going to be a number of factors affecting nominal versus actual speed of any motor.  For a start, losses in the drive train starting with how well the motor is running, through the gears, and whether they are properly engaged and lubricated to be running freely, to the wheels.

 

Then in general, the decoder will be set to 128 speed steps these days (certainly must be for RDS to run his lights) with zero meaning no volts on the motor and 127 full DCC volts.  Then for locos in the RM database, shunt and cruise speeds are defined at particular intermediate speed steps, after which you get to set the throttle between those steps to achieve the speed you want.

 

Finally there may be complications by adjustment of CVs.  These start with starting volts, where you can determine the first speed step at which the loco moves and make this the volts/speed step applied when you first move the throttle from zero.  After that, you also have the ability to define non-linear speed curves as you run through the speed steps.

 

With all of that, no wonder no two locos, even of the same type, run at exactly the same speed.  But none of that explains your observation RDS about lights affecting it.  Can't possibly imagine that changing a function, which is just a value held in a particular CV, can change the speed step going to the motor.  That should mean the mark space ratio applied to the PWM volts going to the motor doesn't change either.  But I also can't think that adding slightly to the current being drawn by the decoder can somehow cause the losses between DCC track volts and voltage swing at the motor to decrease, and more volts to appear there.  Any thoughts on that Chris?

[Chrissaf]

Any thoughts on that Chris?

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Not really. Although ALL my coaches have lights - they are fed directly from bogie pickups, with one exception. I have a four coach EMU with lights fed via a single decoder function output. I do not observe ANY change in speed if I turn on the lights when the train is already in motion. Brand of decoder may have a bearing - I don't have any Hornby or Bachmann decoders, all my loco decoders are ESU Loksound.

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I wonder what brand of decoder does RDS observe this anomaly on?

[PJR_slo]

Some "clever" decoders have the facility to adjust speed according to track voltage.

 

There is always a small resistance between the track and the decoder.  When lights are turned on, the current draw will increase which will cause a larger voltage drop between track and decoder and the decoder may then compensate for this by altering the mark/space ratio slightly.

 

Peter