End to End Shuttle using e-link/railmaster and a sound chip

[johnbet]

I am constructing a new layout with the thought of having one section as an automatic end to end shuttle proabably utilising a DMU.

I have done some research but can't locate anyhting that will set up a sound chipped loco to undertake this utilising e-link and Railmaster. I know you can set this up as a programme but am not sure there would be enough accuracy/consistency for stopping positions for it to be reliable?

Anyone got and thoughts on how to achieve this please.

[Yelrow]

johnbet,  hi, i have end to end shuttle, but no sound. Mine is DCC, stand alome using a Tam Valley Shuttle. You can include stops  etc. Have a look at their site on the net. You can buy from DCC concepts. john

[johnbet]

Thanks John - will take a look

[Michael_A]

Maybe I'm missing something, but if you are using RailMaster, why not just record a program to do it? You can copy the steps to make it repeat for virtually as long as you want. 

 

The only thing is you will have to run the tain into the buffers for a few seconds at one end to keep it stopping in the same place, as without loco detection, it's hit and miss exactly where the train will stop. This looks OK as long as you slow it right down so it runs gently into the buffers.

 

That way you can still use all your sound functions, and in fact incoroprate them into the sequence as well.

[Chrissaf]

Johnbet, just had a look at the TamValley Shuttle on their web site. I have pasted below a statement that is strongly emphasised on their web page:

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"Note: You must not hook the output of a Train Shuttle to any other DCC source, including another Train Shuttle or damage will result."

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This means that the section of track that you intend to run the shuttle on MUST be completely isolated both electrically and physically from the rest of your layout when using this product. The product will not integrate into RM / eLink system and will need to be a 'stand alone' configuration. Also, it is not possible to turn the loco sound on using this Tam Valley product, as stated in the online product manual (specific extract from the manual pasted below):

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"the Train Shuttle cannot program decoders or activate sounds"

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If you want the flexibility to use RM / eLink as well on the 'end to end' section, then the ONLY option is to adopt the suggestion made by Michael. NO DCC system allows more than ONE controller to be connected to the same track at the same time. It is just not technically supported.

 

[johnbet]

Michael 

Thanks - unfortunately one end of the shuttle connects to another track so no buffers.

Chris - the above may render the TamValley product inoperable.

 

John

[Chrissaf]

"Chris - the above may render the TamValley product inoperable."

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Yes

[Yelrow]

Mine runs a treat, stops at station, pauses , waits, goes back, but no sound , and as chris says, in isolation, from other DCC. Would make a good tramway, or single line DMU, into station. john

[Howbi]

@johnbet.........have a look here for shuttle control with IRDOT detection  http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/simple%20shuttle.html ....you can also add sound from MyLocosound which works on movement and has self contained battery.  HB.

 

It may also be possible to introduce some form of voltage reduction near the beginning and end of the track to reduce loco speed more realistically rather than stop suddenly at the IRDOT?

[Yelrow]

I also have the similar version to this, but its DC only. You would need insulated joiners otherwise. I spent some time attempting to find a DCC sound shuttle, to no avail  Tam valley, is the nearest, and most professional one i could find, . john

[Howbi]

Correction to my previous post to @johnbet....I meant to say Sound from Train-Tech SFX20 Sound Capsule.........info here.........http://www.train-tech.com/index.php/sound   HB.

[Chrissaf]

I'm with John (yelrow) on this one, and as he has stated, the heathcote unit is for a DC layout.

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Johnbet has already stated that the proposed 'end to end' track section physically connects into the rest of the DCC layout at one end. So even with insulated rail joiners, at the position where any metal rolling stock wheel attempts to cross-over from the DCC track section to the DC track section or the other way. The metal wheel will bridge the insulated joiner gap and connect the DC voltage to the DCC output of the DCC controller. Not a good idea at all. You would have to include a manual changeover switching arrangement to switch the 'end to end' DC section to DCC working before crossing over the joining link. As this would be a manual and not automatic changeover the risk of forgetting to switch it is high. It would also need a high degree of accurate setting up, as the rolling stock might inadvertantly slip across the insulating gap due to over-runs or creepage.

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IMHO there are just too many risks and cons to make that a viable solution.

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I assume that the investment in expensive DCC equipped sound locos has already been made.

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The same issue of bridging insulating gaps with rolling stock wheels would also be the same with the Tam Valley DCC Shuttle product. Thus, the same manual switching arrangement would be needed in that scenario also. Again, the risk of product damage is high if the insulating gaps get bridged by wheels by accident.

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PS - HB, please accept this reply as not 'having a go' at your suggestion, but just providing an alternative point of view so that Johnbet can make a fully informed decision. I'm sure we would both want Johnbet to adopt a solution (if any) that is the right one for his particular requirements.

[Howbi]

Chris, your technical advice and experience is always appreciated and must have benefitted many inexperienced modellers so always accepted as meant.

 

It seems to me that the solution may be in the form of switching and isolation. My thoughts are that if the length of track used for the shuttle was connected to the main layout by a short R610 piece isolated both ends then a pair of DPDT switches glued together could (A) conduct layout DCC to the R610 and shuttle track in order to transport the required train then (B) switch off layout power & switch on seperate DCC power (possibly via a Select) to just the Shuttle track with the R610 in isolation..........the 2 switches would need their levers joined together to ensure they move simultaneously, one side of A to R610 &Shuttle track then the opposite side of B to just the Shuttle track.  This would eradicate possibilty of shorting across insulated joiners....This would enable DCC sound locos to be operated like Yelrow's system.....possibly!!!!!  HB

[Chrissaf]

HB, another switching / isolation possibility could be.......Johnbet has not stated exactly how the end of the 'end to end' section connects to the rest of the layout at the inter-connecting end. But if it is via a point (Hornby or Peco brand it doesn't matter and assuming points are switched via solenoid point motors). Then a Peco PL15 solenoid mounting plate switch would provide a 'double pole, double throw' changeover switch contact arrangement that is synchronised to the point throw direction. This could be wired in conjunction with isolating track joiners such that when the route is set to connect the 'end to end' section to the main layout, the 'end to end' track section is connected to the main layout DCC controller. When the point route is set against that route, the 'end to end' section is connected to the TAM Valley or Heathcoat product. I have used the Peco PL15 solenoid switch myself for live frogs and auxiliary signals. The switch contacts are adjustable and can provide a 'break before make' action. This would automate the switching (which was my main concern in my earlier post), and the 'break before make' action would remove risk of brief contact between track sections. But this, of course, would be subject to Johnbet's track topology being suitable to accommodate such a modification.

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It is possible (but would be subject to experimentation to try it, using the Tam valley Shuttle product) that a sound loco could be driven onto the 'end to end' section under main layout DCC control with the sound function enabled. The isolating point is thrown. The switching action may be fast enough for the loco to now receive DCC voltage from the Tam Valley Shuttle product and still keep the sound going. This is only a theoretical possibility, but it might be doable. The Tam Valley Shuttle then just controls the shuttle movements. Of course, only sounds that are synchronised to movement DCC packets would be played, for example steam loco chuffs i.e no horns or whistles etc.

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Personally though, before going down that route (pardon the pun) I think I would experiment with setting up a program in RM / eLink and see how well that performs first, and determine what the limitations are.

[Fishmanoz]

Johnbet, if you have buffers at one end, that's all you need.  The problem is cumulative errors over a number of cycles when programmed.  If it returns to buffers at one end, accuracy at the other end will be good.

 

Easy to give it a try anyway, just turn on macro programming and run it as you wish, then see what happens.  You don't need any more gear than you already have.  See page 106 of the manual Recording Program Steps.  Start from the buffers, then run slowly into them again on return and leave it running against the buffers at crawl speed for a second or so.

[Chrissaf]

Johnbet. Fishy makes a very good point about programming errors being cumulative. These errors were I believe your main concern. Running the loco into the buffer end, should accurately reset the program to exactly the same loco starting point for each program cycle.

[Michael_A]

Michael 

Thanks - unfortunately one end of the shuttle connects to another track so no buffers.

Chris - the above may render the TamValley product inoperable.

 

John

As others already said, you only need buffers at one end of the shuttle. Serioulsy, save yourself some time and money and just record a programme. I picked this tip up from this forum some months ago, and use it to shuttle a train from a buiffer stop into a short passing loop. The buffers trick acts as a reset for the start point, removing any accumulative errors.

[96RAF]

The RM manual specifically recommends the use of buffer crashing at low speed to reset the timing of a repeat error prone loop program, even just a once round the circle stop at a station is prone to such error and  the book says to divert into a siding to use the buffers as a marked point to reset the timing.

[johnbet]

Many thanks for all the constructive replies, plenty of food for thought. I do have a buffer at one end and think I will try the suggestion of a railmaster programme initially and monitor the result. The connection to the main track will be via a  hornby point fitted with dcc clips.

once again thanks everyone.