Fishmanoz Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Layout Command Control - LCC. Adam, could you please fix John's typo in the title so it is clear what we are talking about. Sorry John. On the first page of the thread, we were given links to the NMRA info on the system, very interesting it is too and well worth the read. It makes it clear that the problem LCC sets out to solve is not one of extra current draw but extra data flow. With DCC, it is only possible to send one instruction at a time, and it takes a finite time to do so. If you try to send many at once, they are queued up behind each other and the suggestion is that it may take seconds for some to get through. And with the limited exception provided in DCC by RailComm, instructions are one way from controller to decoder and not from decoder to controller. So how does LCC solve the problem? For a start, it splits the system in two so you can have DCC just for locos and LCC for the rest. Is this just like RM with two controllers? Not quite because LCC allows for instructions to be sent much more quickly and so obviating the delays in doing so with DCC and then also allowing for full two way comms to and from controllers and decoders. The info doesn't say how LCC does this, whether it just sends instructions more quickly and/or allows for many to be sent at the same time (has anyone read the actual standard rather than the info on it and knows?). One thing for sure. Everything on LCC will need a new decoder which will have to be very different to DCC decoders. The controllers will probably be new too as there will be a low probability that any existing controllers have enough capability to update firmware to make them LCC compliant. Might LD be an LCC system? Maybe, but remember it has been under development now for years and the LCC standard was only finalised and published in June, so maybe not. Then maybe yes and finalisation of the standard has been the reason for LD delay. We'll just have to wait and see. So might it be related to the cryptic comments made recently by HRMS on throttle synchronisation between Elite and RM? This time, almost certainly not as we are talking locos here and they remain DCC. Thems the facts folks, plus a little speculation. Beyond that, WTD's approach applies for me. PS. Good heavens, a whole extra page added to the thread while I typed, amazing. And despite the length of the post, I didn't get logged out while typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Just to add to Fishy's post above there are two points that might need further clarification. 1. At present no-one knows how it will work because as yet, as far as anyone on here is aware it seems, no manufacturer has marketed any LCC product. Happy to be told otherwise. 2. All that has been published is the LCC "standard" to which all such products SHOULD comply. There are some current DCC products that don't comply with the DCC standards. Can I just add, in case anyone gets the wrong end of the stick, I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with speculation on any forum, it is the virtual equivalent of brainstorming. One idea can suggest another and I would like to think that Hornby and any other manufacturer reading the input may pick up ideas. Having said all that there are, in my view, two occasions where speculation is unhelpful, especially without a "health warning" such as Fishy has added. 1. Where it is challenged by another piece of speculation. 2. Where it is presented as fact. R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 Reading a tad more on other forums, it would appear that LCC would need to connect via Ethernet cable. That makes probably most of our controllers redundant. Happy days. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 @Yelrow...... John, I think that's probably the crux of the matter....RM & Elite depend on USB for data packet transmission...That is the bottleneck and the data speed across Ethernet is vastly superior and will provide two-way communication so that various accessories will communicate with each other to control sequential operations based on time or event.............anyway, that's what I imagine!!!!! HB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 John, to run LCC you will clearly need new and very different LCC controller and decoders, definitely not DCC controller and decoders. You'll still be using Elite or eLink for your locos. Only your accessories will be LCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Fishy...........I envisage that the LCC software will be tablet friendly and run as an intranet commanding a host of trackside and track connected accessories via ethernet. Points, signals, level crossings, lighting etc, not forgetting road vehicle and water craft movement. Endless possibilites but at what cost....Dozens of motors, relays, decoders and, vitally, Loco Detection modules to trigger events..........I wonder which manufacturer will be brave enough to sink several thousand dollars into LCC R&D?.......HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I'm finding the full LCC spec heavy going but I will report back if and when I ever get an understanding of the detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I think this forms the basis for LCC................A TCP/IP system with controller area network (CAN bus), a vehicle bus standard designed to allow microcontrollers and devices to communicate with each other in applications without a host computer. This can communicate with USB so LCC can probably work alongside RM & Elite. HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Interesting HB, is it based on something you've read in the LCC standard, there certainly not being anything like that in the info released by NMRA about the standard. Or are you hypothesising? Not sure what you mean by working alongside RM and Elite, or eLink for that matter. Obviously there will be a very different data bus protocol and LCC controller. No reason this couldn't just plug into RM though if that was given the considerable upgrade needed to cope with LCC functionality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 @ Fishy..............yes, it's in the NMRA specification. A CAN network links ethernet with USB so you can see the potential. HB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 For those enthusiasts interested in further reading regarding CAN bus Networks this link provides comprehensive information...........http://www.ni.com/white-paper/2732/en/HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I'm finding the full LCC spec heavy going but I will report back if and when I ever get an understanding of the detail.Well that was too heavy for me to digest so I found this instead, in particular the Use Cases link explains how the system can work such that even I understand it.http://openlcb.com/introduction-to-openlcb/dashboard/ Although there is no LCC kit out there yet much of what is being described seems awfully familiar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Fascinating RAF - but almost unintelligible to me! What was good to find though, from the top of the landing page your link takes you to, is the link to "Clinics and Videos" I gather info a little better from pictures than text. Although the video clips talk about NMRANet (the LCC predecessor) and the chap doing it is not a great speaker, it is nevertheless a good introduction to the subject. Off to look at the other one posted by HB now. Far too much time on my hands! R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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