Turntable Speed Degradation/Track Power

[Codger]

Hi.

I have an R070 turntable which I have converted to DCC and it works perfectly with the Elite. I've included it my Railmaster layout and it seems to work ok - once. The speed and timing have been set in the railmaster.ini file and the first time it's used after starting RM, it's great. However, the next attempt to use it the motor runs really slow and it stops between exits. If I restart RM, it works fine, at the correct speed and time, but again, subsequent use is hopeless. With RM running, I can use the elite to control it without a problem. Any hints?

I've also got another minor problem with it that after rotating the TT through 180 from the entry track (i.e., turning the loco around) , there is no power on the TT track - i.e., i can't move the loco off the TT. I can rotate right or left oner exit and it's fine. This is not an RM issue it's the same with the Elite 

Codger

[Chrissaf]

Codger, it might be helpful if you were to post the .INI settings that you entered for the two .INI turntable parameters (the values of 'n' in lines shown below):

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• Turntable speed=n
• Turntable timer=n

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Then people who have a R070 turntable controlled by RM could compare your settings to their own. That might give them a clue as to what to suggest.

[RDS]

... many here have posted that they have ignored Hornby's instructions and left the contacts all in-situ and just isolated all the tracks  ...

 

That is the way I did it (but I only isolated the input track) and it worked perfectly.

[Chrissaf]

Further to my last post above:

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I have just shot MY OWN theory out of the water. My theory is wrong. I have just revisited the Hornby modification instructions again. The contacts that Hornby say need to be removed are on the TT Bridge track, not the stub tracks leading on and off the TT. Please ignore my whole section previously posted relating to 180 degree issue.

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Oh for the ability to delete one's own posts !! Have requested Admin to edit my previous post for me and remove incorrect text.

[Fishmanoz]

Chris, you talk about the possibility of having removed the contacts from the inlet track but there are none.  The contacts removed using the Hornby method are on the rails at each end of the bridge, not the inlet track, or the outlet tracks.

 

This still doesn't explain the 180 degree issue, although I think it must be related to the slip ring design.  Presumably, there is a fault at 180 degrees.

[Chrissaf]

That's precisely why I asked Adam to delete the post, once I noticed my error. If you look again, you will see that it has now gone. I requested Adam to delete prior to your post.

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I think from now on I will stop replying to TT related issue posts. Every one I have replied to so far has had some form of error in it, bourne out of not having any personal TT experiences to draw upon. I'll just keep my trap shut from now on with regard to TT topics. Apart from maybe posting the Brian Lambert TT link.

[Fishmanoz]

Was there while I was answering it.

[Chrissaf]

Obviously, else you wouldn't have seen it to make comment on. There was a delay (albeit short) between my making the delete request to Adam and my request being actioned.

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Incidently, if you had looked at later posts. You would have seen a 'follow up' post from me (now also deleted at my request) that highlighted my error and requested readers to ignore my now deleted incorrect previous post. It's possible my 'follow up' reply was posted at the same time you were in the process of writing yours.

[Codger]

Hi All

Thanks for the suggestions. There's some intriguing things about these two (but unrelated) TT issues. but to answer Chris' question first, the settings in RM INI are currently TT speed=60; TT timer=15. I have experimented with them and found the problem exists regardless of the settings.

The first intriguing question is this - the fact that the TT motor runs well and the time between exits is correct for the first (and on one occasion second) movement, it gets progressivly slower and seems to labour on subsequent movements -  it won't move the TT bed at all after 3 or 4 movements. Now this would suggest a mechanical problem (rather than an electronics problem). However, the motor perfomance (and consequent TT movement) is consistent (and good) when controlling the TT with the Elite - or the walkabout Select for that matter. So this one is a mystery.

The second intriquing question is why the TT track is live at every exit position when it goes past 180 degrees - this suggests it simply has to be a simple wiring/electrics problem. I guess I'll have to roll my sleeves up and dismantle it to look at this one.

Although the TT is not something that I use everytime I use RM, I don't recall having this issue since RM v1.63 arrived on the scene - but I may being paranoid!

Incidentally, my DCC conversion was as per the Hornby instruction sheet,

Thanks again for the suggestions and help

Thanks again,

Codge

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Codge,

I'd like to make two observations if I may. First of all, if you start off the turntable using the Elite only, and let it run at a constant setting on the Elite, do you still get the speed degradation? If not, then it can't be mechanical. Secondly, how are you measuring the TT timer value? If you start off your TT at speed 60, then the timer value should be measured from arriving at one road until arriving at the next road. Also, if you just let it run at 60 and use a stopwatch to record the times of arrival at every road, the gaps between these times should be the same. This will also prove and measure your speed degradation if it is there.

Ray

[Yelrow]

This subject is interesting in that i have never set or messed with the ini file for turntables, and both mine work perfectly, except from Plan on Screen. They go from outlet to outlet, stop between, for a second or  two, unless i stop them, then move on to next track. One is DCC, and one is DC. Why would you wish to measure speed etc, if it  runs ok. what am i missing. john

[St1ngr4y]

This subject is interesting in that i have never set or messed with the ini file for turntables, and both mine work perfectly, except from Plan on Screen. They go from outlet to outlet, stop between, for a second or  two, unless i stop them, then move on to next track. One is DCC, and one is DC. Why would you wish to measure speed etc, if it  runs ok. what am i missing. john

Hi John,

How do you operate them within RM ? Do you click a TT icon on your layout diagram or do you have your TT defined as a loco ? The INI file settings are needed by RM if you click a TT icon to make it move. RM needs to know what speed request to send to the decoder and how long to wait before sending it a stop command, and these settings provide that information.

Ray

[Yelrow]

Ray, Hi, fascinating. My TT is loco 022 and originally clicked happily on schematic, back, or forward, then i re located it, and now it only works, when you drive the imaginary loco. Are you saying that doing something, or inserting something into ini file, will make it work from screen again. If so, great, what do i insert or tweak. john

[St1ngr4y]

Ray, Hi, fascinating. My TT is loco 022 and originally clicked happily on schematic, back, or forward, then i re located it, and now it only works, when you drive the imaginary loco. Are you saying that doing something, or inserting something into ini file, will make it work from screen again. If so, great, what do i insert or tweak. john

Hello John,

When you say you "re located it", do you mean the actual turnatable, the icon on your layout diagram, or both. You could go into the layout designer, right-click on the TT icon, and make sure the address 22 is still in there. If not, type it in and re-save your layout plan.

The two items you need in your railmaster.ini file are:-

Turntable speed=nn

Turntable timer=nn

The first specifies the speed at which you want the TT to go when you click on the TT icon. I have mine set to the same value as the "cruise" speed on my loco definition for the TT. The timer value is the number of seconds it takes at the speed you have decided upon, to travel from one road to the next. If, like the Hornby TT, there is a mechanism built-in to the TT to cause it to pause at each road, then you need to time it from its arrival at one road, through its pause, then through to its arrival at the next road. 

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

Did you get all of that from Ray John?  A simple matter really of ensuring RM knows the correct address of the TT by right clicking the TT in Layout Design, then setting up speed and time in the ini file.

 

But none of this solves Codger's really strange problem that to me defies logic.  Clearly the fact it continues to work from Elite proves no mechanical or electrical problem, something really weird seems to be happening. I suggest emailing HRMS from within the Help window of RM immediately after the problem occurs.  That is so they can look at your log.txt file which is sent with your email when the problem is happening.

[Codger]

Hi All,

Thanks for your cooments. To get back to topic - Ray, point 1. I've run the TT off the Elite at a constant speed for 3 complete circuits of the TT and there is no degradation/change in the TT speed - it's fine. Point 2 - I measured the timer speed by timing the TT track arrival at one exit to the arrival at the next.

Commenting the timer speed out of the INI makes no difference - the TT will not run will not run at all.

Who knows what the problem is?

[Fishmanoz]

Have you emailed HRMS as I suggested Codger. See second para of my post above where I got the thread back on track.

[mjb1961]

Hi all ,do you have to set a time in rail master or could you leave that out and just set a speed because after all the TT should stop at each exit ,or ,why don't you just run it from the elite and use rail master for everything else ,also I don't know why you lose power on the bridge ,I have a similar issue with mine ,I'm dcc as per Hornby instructions ,now then when I run locos with sound I lose power / sound when the bridge passes through the exit tracks ,if I could rotate the TT and avoid passing through the two exits it doesn't lose power/sound ,strange ,,,

[Fishmanoz]

You can of course run with just Elite, or RM running it as a loco (as John has been doing) without setting time or speed.  But if you want to run it as a TT from the RM screen you must set speed and time, a very simple matter of the lines in your ini file as described above.  This way, operation of the TT is simplified from having to drive a loco equivalent to just a click on the TT icon on screen.

 

Yes, the TT pauses at each output but it will then continue on again if the timer is not set to turn the motor off while it's paused. 

 

That Hornby butchery method of removing the contacts to convert to DCC has many things to answer for given there are much more elegant methods.  But sound going off at output track alignment shouldn't be one of them.  Having removed the contacts, the bridge power shouldn't be able to tell the difference on whether it is aligned to a track or not.  

 

I have 2 questions to explore further.  First, are your outputs powered or just dead sidings?  And second, does it happen on all outputs, or only half on one side?  I'm trying to explore if perchance you are causing a short when aligned to a track, although that shouldn't happen when the contacts are removed but may happen as you go to drive a loco onto an outlet.

[mjb1961]

Hi fishmanoz,my turntable has 1 entrance ,the one with the power contacts and it has just 2 exits which are powered and the 2 exits are next each other ,no exits in between ,anyway with a loco with sound on the bridge and rotate it clockwise it keeps its sound until it passes the first powered exit and enters the area between the 2 at which point it loses its sound ,what I do know is that when I applied the power feed wires to the exit tracks keeping rail A as red wire and rail B as black it causes a short so I had to reverse the wires on one of the tracks to avoid the short ,does that help ,,,,,mjb

[Fishmanoz]

Yes, that's clearer.  Start by googling Brian Lambert and look at his coverage of TTs with slip ring design, as for the R070.  Now you should understand that due to the slip rings, half the outlets are reversed in polarity. 

 

Given you have one reversed and they are next to each other, they must be one either side of 180 degrees where the slip rings reverse.  Also, given the slip rings must break one circuit before they make contact on the reversed, there will be a dead area between these outlets and this will be where you will lose your sound.  I think unavoidable with a slip ring design, there must always be a break at 180 degrees.

 

Codger, this will also be your explanation I think. 

[mjb1961]

Thankyou fishmanoz ,I think I understand ,I assume I'm stuck with that then ,,,,,,mjb

[Fishmanoz]

Yes, I think you are.

[Baz48]

HiCodger,Please have a look in "General Discussion" at "Hornby Turntable"  posted by BAZ48 a week ago, I think that this will solve your problem !!!

Regards, Barry. 

[Fishmanoz]

Barry, having converted it to DCC with a decoder running it and working perfectly from his Elite but not properly in RM, not sure why he would want to revert to DC running as you have done.  What he wants is, as well as the successful DCC/Elite running, successful RM running.  Operating via RM has the advantages of being able to operate it from the track layout on screen and also from a program, neither of which can be achieved running it DC.