Loco detection

[Gregd99]

I have been a way from my layout and the forum for a while.

There was a lot of discussion a few years ago about loco detection being released by Hornby. I don't see much discussion in recent times.

Was the product released? Has there been much take up?

[walkingthedog]

No it wasn't.  They're all still waiting.  

[Rog RJ]

See this thread https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/loco-detection-availability-lets-start-a-sweep/?p=1

[westernwill]

I have been waiting patiently like every one else, but recently I have drawn a line in the sand .

I am looking at alternatives and getting very close to choosing one. I am not going to name brands but a company has something so close to what Hornby are proprosing it is stupid, loco detection sensors using all or one with ir,light or RIFD. They have them all, it runs on their own bus and intergrates into your own DCC system using their software. The downfall is that Hornby is not supported but about 10 major players are. The software you use has a full programming language for automation including detection. 

I still think the hornby one for me is the best system as I have an elite plus booster including railmaster pro, so alot of money to put to the side or sell.

Without putting Hornby to ransome 2016 will be a major change on my layout as I am sick of waiting.

 Why the mystery, just name the system. If there is one that works, that is.

[walkingthedog]

Does anybody know exactly what Hornby is proposing 007? 

[Fishmanoz]

There is some published information sourced from Hornby on LD, and there is already a lot of LD capability built into RM on what actions can be taken based on detections at sensors.  Beyond that, there has been a mountain of informed speculation and discussion.  If you do a search on Loco Detection in the forums, you will get 5 returns, one of which is this thread and another the Sweep thread linked above.  Most information is contained in the older thread of this name and the one adding What is it and How Does it Work.

[Gregd99]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

 

I built a simple IR based system that allowed me to run trains using JMRI. Loco detection makes the whole idea of computer control a lot more fun (albeit complex).

 

One of the problems to be addressed for a "point" detection (as opposed to block detection) is whether a train is presnet or not.... for example if you have cross-track IR how do you handle teh gap between carriages. This is done smoply with a timer BUT.... the time depends on the train speed:-) For a compact layout the adaptive adjustment of this time is really important.

 

All good fun.

[Rog RJ]

 

...... for example if you have cross-track IR how do you handle teh gap between carriages.

 

 

Fit the IR detector/transmitter at an angle across the track

[Gregd99]

@Rog,

Sure but you still have situations like

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or windows or...

[Rog RJ]

Given enough angle it should still work I would think.

 

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/ATDetIR.html

[hosh]

Given enough angle it should still work I would think.

 

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/ATDetIR.html

 

Interesting all this - and then you might have some flatbed carriages also, so getting the height and angle right would be key!

 

But in any case, and especcialy now knowing this, I couldn't see myself with flatbeds or any other carriages that don't fill out most of the space between couplers! Just in case! LOL.

[hosh]

I have read alot of the manual and it does alot , cons are it doesnt know the trains unless you use the scanner for  RFID (not cheap) 

 

So are you saying that the software can't be told what train is where at startup and then keep track of them?

[hosh]

I have read alot of the manual and it does alot , cons are it doesnt know the trains unless you use the scanner for  RFID (not cheap) 

 

So are you saying that the software can't be told what train is where at startup and then keep track of them?

You advise the software at startup where the train is ie Block A is dcc train DMU108 and then it keeps track of it via software (called beacons). You can have RFID readers but the costs is way to much and if you need to spend 2 minutes at startup to tell which train is where then thats ok.

Even with teh Hornby LD system the train still has to move across a reader before it knows when it is (I assume).

 

Thanks for that reply - it was exactly what I wanted to know and hear.

 

I was looking over JMRI the other day and the same thing seems to be there.

 

That is the only benefit of LD - it saves RM the trouble of working out what train just tripped a sensor. But it's an extremely easy chore anyway so no real advantage.

 

And even LD will need to be initiated at startup also.

 

Btw, does your system allow you to save the "state" when you shut down and then simply resume the next time you power up your layout? Or does every loco need to be intialised every time?

[Fishmanoz]

PHIL, your assumption isn't correct, but not for the reason you think.  When a loco passes over a sensor, RM will receive a detection for that loco but it won't know where it is because it doesn't know where the sensors are.  

 

The layout you produce must be kept quite separate to any variables containing loco information kept as part of RM's area where it processes commands.  There are no variables containing such positional information in that part currently.  

 

The fact that the schematic shows where things are and how they are connected is there purely for your convenience, not for other RM use.  If you were to remove all straights and curves from your layout and simply heap all your points in one area of the screen, all your signals in another, all your sensors in a third and your TT and other accessories in a fourth, RM would be no more or less knowledgeable about your layout than it was before you removed the connecting track.

[hosh]

PHIL, your assumption isn't correct, but not for the reason you think.  When a loco passes over a sensor, RM will receive a detection for that loco but it won't know where it is because it doesn't know where the sensors are. 

 

This is just a bizarre comment from you.

 

The sensor is the location!

 

e.g. I have a station called Kings Cross with 4 platforms labeled 1, 2, 3 and 4. The station is aligned North/South. I have a sensor at the south end of platfrom 2. I call it KC2S.

 

So when that sensor is tripped, RM will know exactly what sensor it is, where it is and thus where the train is.

 

Where's the hard part?

 

RM is "knowledgable about the layout" via each train's program, which when LD is released will contain references to the sensors.

[RDS]

... This is just a bizarre comment from you ........ The sensor is the location! ...

I agree with Fishy.

 

You are right hosh, in that RM knows that a train has just passed over a sensor.  It will apparently know, which train it was, how fast it was going and in which direction.  What RM does not know is, WHERE the sensor is on your layout.  

 

In order to test all my points, I have created a separate RM layout that consists purely of points, no track, just points.

They are not connected to each other but they are identified correctly in the setup boxes.  They are all just stacked one above the other in columns.  They all work perfectly, in that points can be controlled from RM and if programmed according they can switch other points.  If I had signals (I just added this in for PJ's benefit!), the signals would change as well.

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi hosh

 

What I think is clear here is, there have been so many examples about RM and what it understands or doesn't understand, so many people have explained in detail RM doesn't know where items are but you still believe it does.

 

In one sense I can see both arguements, but it depends how you are viewing them. From an x-y co-ordinate situation the screen knows where to put an item, it knows because we put it there and that sums it up. It doesn't remember anything else. We have placed an icon/image or programmable icon/image in a location of a screen that is all it knows. The icon placed on the screen could be a piece of track, a point, a signal, a LD sensor, but all they are are image files on a screen at a position we placed them so we know what they are. Any of these items could be anywhere on the screen and they will work, they don't even need track image files. Many examples have been provided.

 

To me this is going round and round more times than my trains. To me it seems there is now only one fina consideration....

 

Does it really matter whether or not RM remebers these things. No.

To me knowing what RM remembers on screen is as trivial as knowing what type of sensor is to be plpaced on the track.

 

Do I know what type of gear box is in my car? No. Does it matter? No.

Can I change gear and make the car move? Yes.

How do I know which gear is where? If has a schematic design on the gear stick. Does it stop me changing gear if the gear nob turns round? No.

 

Surely then if we have a simulated layout that shows me what bits are important it doesn't really matter if RM remembers certain items so long as it does what it should do. The same can be said for the LD sensors, do we know what type they are? Not yet. Does it matter? Not for me, because I know if I install it as recommended, add tags as recommended, etc it will talk with RM and make playing with my trains more exciting.

 

[Yelrow]

PJ, EXCITING,???, interesting, more complete, more pleasant, more fun, but Exciting, ? you must lead a sheltered life. john

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello John

 

How do I answer this?

 

If you suffer varying degrees of pain 24/7 and have to rely on others for simple jobs you that you use to do with ease, you cannot let it get you down, so you allow little things in life to excite you. If you never ever sleep through the night because of it and other issues, you grab the things in life that bring a bit of light, things that may excite you even if only for a short period.

 

Do I live a sheltered life?

 

I cannot go out if it is to windy, I cannot walk to the car. I hate going out when it is raining, people don't realise sitting means your legs get wet and then very cold. I often look at people put a blue badge up in their car and almost run to the supermarket because it is raining. Then walk round the store! I try shelter under the rear tail gate of my car whilst I hoist my power wheel chair out, I then trundle at around 4mph to try get indoors without getting to wet.

 

So I have learnt to appreciate the smaller things in life and laugh at things others may not. LOL

 

But, at the end of it all I never say 'why me'. Life doesn't guarantee to be easy you just have to get on with it. I never say why me, though I have heard many say it, I never say it because in effect I would be saying why not you or someone else that would be unfair and I think very selfish.

 

Maybe I do live a sheltered life in some ways John but I am getting on with it (with or without LD  >>> LOL <<<)

 

Adding just one word to a well known song...

'Always TRY look on the bright side of life'   ;o)

 

[Howbi]

Hi PJ...................all credit to you for your pragmatism and perseverance with the daily challenges you have to face.............and I believe that sentiment is appropriate to several other Members on this Forum...........hope you have a very Happy Xmas...HB.

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi PJ...................all credit to you for your pragmatism and perseverance with the daily challenges you have to face.............and I believe that sentiment is appropriate to several other Members on this Forum...........hope you have a very Happy Xmas...HB.

 

Thank you HB

 

In fairness I take John's comments in a humous way. ;~)

 

I know he has family members less fortunate than himself. The trouble is, as I always say, we can never know what someone is experiencing or how they try cope unless it is us with the problem, My brother can be sympathetic but hasn't clue really and I don't mean that in a nasty way.  We never know how a lady feels when told she has breast cancer or a man when told he has bowl cancer, etc, etc. We don't really know what it is like to be flooded once let alone twice in days, some will struggle for months, then there is the loss of sentimental items! I always say when walking down the street (I can't but you know what I mean) all the smiles on faces are very nice but it doesn't mean everything is alright inside. We all wear a mask of some kind.

 

When people say Christmas is a time of 'good will' I always ask what about the other 364 days!  Every day should be a caring day, how many families are fighting by boxing day, some sooner. It is so sad.

 

May I wish you and all your family, a very happy, caring and peaceful Christmas. ;o)

[hosh]

 

Surely then if we have a simulated layout that shows me what bits are important it doesn't really matter if RM remembers certain items so long as it does what it should do. The same can be said for the LD sensors, do we know what type they are? Not yet. Does it matter? Not for me, because I know if I install it as recommended, add tags as recommended, etc it will talk with RM and make playing with my trains more exciting. 

 

I cannot fathom for the life of me what people even mean when they say that RM doesn't know where a sensor is or that RM doesn't remember where a sensor is.

 

Could someone -

 

a) explain

 

or

 

b) tell me what the significance of such a statement is? What does it mean in terms of what RM will or won't be able to do?

 

Mentioning x, y co-odinates has no meaning whatsoever. The only thing that has meaning on railways is what block we're in (LD tells us this) and what is adjacent to us in either direction (taken into account and implied in RM programs).

 

Again, with LD telling RM where a loco is, and then RM programs reacting to that and telling the loco where to go, RM always know's where everything is and where it's headed. And it can look infinitely into both the past and the future via the program as well.

[Yelrow]

PJ, sorry to pull your leg, but you know from our past banter, thats what it was. You are right, i have a brother and  a son, in the same boat. I dont think my brother has ever been excited, whereas, when my son got his early xmas present from the hornby sale, he was.. The best thing for my lad, are his motability cars, with  a hoist, similar to yours, i would imagine.  I am spending an inordanent time, in my TT room,  with my helix. Thank heavens i did not build it in the summer. The garden would have been over run. Following your Dialogue with Hosh, with interest. Not that i would ever contemplate LD, as i have to be fair with all my gauges. Hence the DC expansion at present. Did not want these locos, to feel, leftout, as have far more DC, than DCC, and it will always be so.  Thought about the lancaster area, last week, when my son had no power for 24 hours, due to lancaster flooding.  john

[hosh]

Let's have a look at RM with and without LD.

 

Train headed for a station where it intends to stop at the end of the platform -

 

• without LD - user runs program S that slows train down realistically near start of platform. When train reaches end of platform he stops the train.
• with LD - sensor tripped at start of platform, RM runs program S. Sensor tripped at end of platform, RM commands train to stop.

With the user in control, he sees where the start and end of the platform is and issues commands at those locations. The situation is identical with LD except RM uses sensors instead of eyes and also runs a program script to perform both the slowing task and then the stop.

 

As you should be able to understand, both see where the loco is and both know what to do at given locations.

[hosh]

You are right hosh, in that RM knows that a train has just passed over a sensor.  It will apparently know, which train it was, how fast it was going and in which direction.  What RM does not know is, WHERE the sensor is on your layout.   

 

Could you please explain what you mean by RM not knowing where the sensor is? And/or what the significance of this staement is?

 

I name the sensor "A" - I have just called that location of the layout "A".

 

Where's the confusion or point of contention?