RDS Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I have raised this thread so that the much discussed topic of LD against BD can be covered here and not on a thread that was raised for a particular purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 @hoshThere is a product I know of, providing 16 detection points on your layout for under $10US per point. You can have a million of them depending on software. There are lots of systems out there, what is the name of this system you talk a lot about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 You don't need to apologise magfan, as you say BD exists! It would be sad if we couldn't discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the systems available. Maybe that statement sums up the issue regarding LD, it is not available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 @magfan / All What benefits does BD have over LD other than availability? If you hadn't installed BD and LD was available do you think you may have gone for LD instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 is loco detection compatable with other dcc systems If Hornby have commissioned a Loco Detection system to work within RailMaster then, of course, it won't be compatible with any other DCC system....HB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Have a look at this stuff.....http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/index.php/section-controller-sec4-dccHB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 is loco detection compatable with other dcc systems Loco Detection is being made by Hornby to work with RailMaster which is also made by Hornby so they are compatible with each other. They are not isolated from each other and the track does not need to be isolated for the system to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetmanUK Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 LD is BD with added value. Simple ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 BD does exactly as it says and determines if something is in a particular area of a layout known as a block. In the first instance, it knows only that there is something in there drawing current (system as described by hosh) then uses logic from other information already known about locos on the layout to determine which loco. LD determines that a loco is present at a sensor on a particular point in a layout. If the loco is suitably tagged (as proposed in the Hornby system), it knows which loco it has detected. Will Hornby LD be compatible with other DCC systems? Simple answer is it depends on whether it is NMRA compliant or not. If it uses a proprietary bus, it is unlikely to be. If, as I have speculated, it uses the NMRA LCC bus, then it will be compatible with other systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If, as I have speculated, it uses the NMRA LCC bus, then it will be compatible with other systems. I admire your optimisim, Fishy......HB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 @ Phul I looked at this and it wasn't for me after buying three of them, they didnt integrate into a software system. I will be selling mine on eBay soon. (Brand new in wrappers hint hint). I also moved away from this system for the same reasons. By installing sensors I can now control the speed of trains , stop at signals and wait for green until the next block is free, also my layout map is updated in blocks of where the active blocks/trains are all with DCC control. Do you want to say what this system is called Phul? It may be what I and others are looking for. I would be happy for you to do this by e-mail. I have passed my details to Admin. R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 BD provides Block Detection by having isolated sections separating the blocks in track lengths. LD simulates Block Detection by the position of sensors which in effect can be used as block sensors. LD sensors will however do more, they will provide more flexibility, especially for speed control and stopping of our locos. (Though some BD users may argue this point). LD sensors can also be used for stopping locos in stations and sidings with more accuracy. Although both will be good systems, LD will offer more for the user, based on what we have been told so far. For me, the cutting out and adding isolators to separate blocks for BD would be a nightmare, adding sensors will be so much easier. But as with any system there will be advantages and disadvantages, not just in installation but also in use. With LD sensors must be kept clean at all times or they will fail. BD itself doesn't have that problem (until sensors are added to do additional tasks) I still prefer to wait for LD, although I am now looking at the various other systems. When LD is available, I will probably install the system in two stages, maybe six months apart, firstly looking at station and siding control and then the main line blocks later. This way I can spread the cost but more importantly make sure it works satisfactorily before commiting to the full system. I do not want to experience problems with LD as some of us have with signalling. LD will be a new system so there will be teething problems, we accept that, but I do not want the nightmare of over a year waiting to get signals working as they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 @hoshThere is a product I know of, providing 16 detection points on your layout for under $10US per point. You can have a million of them depending on software. There are lots of systems out there, what is the name of this system you talk a lot about? Digitrax BDL168 This product, along with LocoNet of course, has been on the market since 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 LD is BD with added value. Simple ! How so? I see LD as no doubt being more expensive, more fiddling and more maintenance! The advantage being that you don't need to set up blocks with plastic joiners. But any well set up layout has the minimum voltage drops between loco and power supply (i.e. the fewest metal rail joiners relied upon to feed current to locos). Depending on the software, BD might be a little more difficult to understand and set up, but in comparison that's a minor detail. An existing layout would probably be easier to add LD to, but if you are doing a layout from scratch then BD has the benefits of low cost hardware, long term maintenance and basically forces you to wire your layout in a very efficient manner as well. Another thing about BD is that a product like the BDL168 actually gives you 32 detection points - 16 where a train enters a block and another 16 where they leave. So for example, you make a section of track along a station platform a block. As the train enters it is commanded to slow down and as it exits it comes to a complete stop. All this for one single slot of the 16! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Have a look at this stuff.....http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/index.php/section-controller-sec4-dccHBI looked at this and it wasnt for me after buying three of them, they didnt intergrate into a software system. I will be selling mine on ebay soon. (Brand new in wrappers hint hint)I went another system that has software intergration and light sensors for block controll. I didnt have to cut my track up. By installing sensors I can now control the speed of trains , stop at signals and wait for green until the next block is free, also my layout map is updated in blocks of where the active blocks/trains are all with DCC control.This is what Hornby should have two years ago. I think when it does get released alot of people will takeit up as it opens up so much more control of what you would like to do. Yep, when I first looked at it I thought "too much being done by hardware". And now, as you described, it has limited application. All we need is a detector! Software works out the rest! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 LD sensors will however do more, they will provide more flexibility, especially for speed control and stopping of our locos. (Though some BD users may argue this point). LD sensors can also be used for stopping locos in stations and sidings with more accuracy. I can't see how you think this. Both detect a train at a point and tell it what to do. How does LD do that better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Although both will be good systems, LD will offer more for the user, based on what we have been told so far. For me, the cutting out and adding isolators to separate blocks for BD would be a nightmare, adding sensors will be so much easier. Yes, that's the best argument for LD. Personally, I think it's the only argument! But, you then have cost, dirt/dust and there is still fiddling with tags and sensors as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Also, for BD, a loco is detected and then the system feeds commands back to not only the loco, but signals, points and any other device you have connected to your layout/system. Is this what RM will do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 But, you then have cost, dirt/dust and there is still fiddling with tags and sensors as well. This is the bit that concerns me, not dust we can deal with that easily, fiddling with tags under locos, tenders and last carriages/guards vans. These items have not been designed to fit tags and getting them to the correct clearance, without catching, rubbing or similar could be the most fiddly part of LD. As said, every system has good and bad points, only we personally can decide which is best for us. Although I am still LD, I am certainly looking at the other options (I think many are). The longer Hornby take to launch LD the more custom they could lose. But, it they launch it and it is problematic it could be suicide. They have to get it right! The worry is, I think, if they cannot get a simple thing right like when it will be launched, coming soon or 2017, that does not give us faith in the system. And I didn't mention the signal saga. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If I'm a customer I want the low cost option of LD that simply detects - never mind about tags, speed, direction. This is the oldest story in computers/electronics - why do something in hardware that can be done in software? It is more expensive and usually unnecessary, as is the case with model railroading (I think). Are there any known latency issues with software vs hardware systems for model railroading? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 These sensors seem to be identical to those illustrated by Hornby previously, just look at the price for 10!!!! The question is...........how does this simple light sensor read the information on the tag attached to the underside of the loco? It is not a Bar Code reader nor a QR code reader. Oh dear, more speculation!!!!! HB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 The picture I posted previously has not been shown so here is the link......http://www.littlebluepigs.com/electronics/sensors-modules/10-x-tcrt5000-reflective-photoelectric-infrared-optical-sensors-tx-rx.html HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 There is no obvious integration with software HB - well, to me anyway. R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If I'm a customer I want the low cost option of LD that simply detects - never mind about tags, speed, direction. Direction of a loco is not that important from my 'current' view point as I already know which way the loco is travelling. Having said that when a train is run on a line in the opposite direction then the system knowing the trains direction could be important. But if signalling is preprogrammed correctly it may not be that important, but that would depend on how complicated we want things to be and that we have programmed correctly. More advsanced programming will no doubt come with use, as we grow into the system and push to do more things with it. Speed on the other hand I see as important to control. With clear blocks things seem simple but with several locos on a length of track, one running faster than another speed control linked with correct signal aspects, Y proceed with extra caution, YY proceed with caution, then reducing speeds accordingly aids to more realistic train control. Speed control to sidings, speed control in the blocks before sidings and stations etc, etc, will I think, be very important and with sensors in stations and sidings to stop locos, approaching at a suitable speed will mean the loco will stop more accurately in the same place each time. With the use of programmed routes stopping in the same place each time is very important. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireman_Ian Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Has anybody tried VD (Visual Detection) I have been using it for years and it is always reliable - untill my eyesight goes that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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