PJ_model_trains Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 @hoshRM will do far more than LD, it will also process the data sent to it from LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 @ hosh.............I don't think 'wisdom' is an attribute you can ascribe to RM or the Computer come to that. In the Human world, events can be affected by both wisdom and logic but in the Digital world only Logic is applied. HB. This entire train of thought (pun intended) is just some sort of philosophical view that doesn't really say anything. Let me restate it - RM is much more capable with LD than without. To add a little personification, it can now "see"! There is no attempt on my part to sell some sort of Terminator Skynet notion of conscious machines! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 @hoshRM will do far more than LD, it will also process the data sent to it from LD Are they competing with each other? Ummm, LD will report to RM that Train T passed Sensor S just now. It is all one system - who cares what part does more than another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 To me the logic is pretty simple.I have sensors that represent locations. That is it hosh... they 'represent' the location... simulating what you see on your layout locations will typically be before a signal, which in turn is before a set of points for example. This means said signal and point is now also associated with that location and direction. Agreed ;o) So a sensor designated as "A" could be associated with signal "A" and point/s "A". And thus RM now knows the location of locos and everything else. Yes and No. Yes - they could all be associated and it would be sensible to do this, but No - RM doesn't know the location of the loco. It would only know what LD told it, the Loco we gave tag #001 went over sensor #001 and if we programmed either the points, signal or loco to do something when this loco passes over the sensor then it will carry out those requests in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 @hoshRM will do far more than LD, it will also process the data sent to it from LD Are they competing with each other? Ummm, LD will report to RM that Train T passed Sensor S just now. It is all one system - who cares what part does more than another? Hi hosh No they are not competing with each other. RM runs your system with information we program into the software butRM will also process data from LD as a secondary or sub system.LD will only send small packets of information RM for it to process subject to what we have previously programed into RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 ... yes LD will allow full automation as there are If Thens ... Now that is powerful, I did not realise IF / THEN was included. Just stepping back to this item, I miss read this based on the statement 'that is powerful' RM has lots of IF / THEN commands I was thinking on the 'Powerful' commands of >>> IF / THEN / ELSE I am not at this moment aware of IF/THEN/ELSE directly in our use of RM, but I do believe they will be required with signalling at a later date once HRM have caught up with signalling. Apologies for mis-reading ;o) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 No - RM doesn't know the location of the loco. It would only know what LD told it, the Loco we gave tag #001 went over sensor #001 and if we programmed either the points, signal or loco to do something when this loco passes over the sensor then it will carry out those requests in order. This concept that many seem to share with you baffles me completely, and you seem to have contradicted everything you said previous. The Loco has been sensed at the sensor - that's where it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I was thinking on the 'Powerful' commands of >>> IF / THEN / ELSE That's JMRI territory for the very advanced. It will be interesting to see how advanced and capable RM will be post LD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 ...RM has lots of IF / THEN commands ... Am I missing something here? I am not aware of any IF / THEN commands in RailMaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 ...RM has lots of IF / THEN commands ... Am I missing something here? I am not aware of any IF / THEN commands in RailMaster I believe he's simply referring to the basic commands which are preset "IF THENS" of course. I don't ever see RM being open source! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 ...RM has lots of IF / THEN commands ...Am I missing something here? I am not aware of any IF / THEN commands in RailMaster Hi RDS Not as in programming machine code, IF this THEN that, but in effect of what we control in RM. I am struggling a bit as my layout is now up-ended until the new year and my PC is down as I need to move it set it up in another room, I will have to come back on this. So don't have access to RM!!! Sorry. (I am on the laptop no RM) The IF / THEN / ELSE command for signals is another thing. When signalling back down the line there will be problems without it! One train could change a signal Red and another change back down the line to Y, YY or G. >>>>> CRASH <<<<< For this we will need IF / THEN / ELSE so that we can program back down the line but keep Stop commands. e.g. last carriage passes signal >>> IF first back down the line signal Red THEN Red ELSE Yellow last carriage passes signal >>> IF second down the line signal Red THEN Red ELSE Yellow Yellow last carriage passes signal >>> IF third down the line signal Red THEN Red ELSE Green Without the use of IF / THEN / ELSE commands for this situation I cannot see 'back down the line signalling' working. It is so important Red signals are always Red. On signal Red - Train(s) xxx = STOP This could be one of the most used commands. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 @hosh You are correct, basic commands. But I cannot access RM to give examples as explained above. Also RM will never be Open Source, it is a commercial package, Open Source is Free as you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 RDS, go back and have a look at the LD sensor setup instruction set and you can see the IF/THEN instructions. They come in the form FOR commands. As an example - For loco NN, reduce loco NN speed to 10, which is exactly the same as saying IF loco NN is detected, THEN reduce its speed to 10. There is also an implied Else in this - Else continue as before. If the Else you want to achieve is different to the Then or what was happening previously, then program another If/Then to achieve it. Hosh, all that you said on the last page in your post under my last post (yes, I'm refusing to use the Quote button to clog this thread with info we can all see already) is true. But it is you who know it and take account of it in your setup for points, signals and sensors, and your programming. And PJ's subsequent posts in reply are consistent with what I've just said too. And this is the last time I'll post this in this or the How LD Works threads as I've said all I have to say on the matter and people must be sick of my saying it by now. No problem with helping such as I have RDS as I have at the start of this post though. I have said this before, but now buried in a previous page of this or the other thread, I don't remember which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Thanks Fishy. At least 13 pages (so far) have not been added to our 'Sweep' thread though. I will re-look at the LD commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Thanks Fishy. At least 13 pages (so far) have not been added to our 'Sweep' thread though. I will re-look at the LD commands. Top of page 7 of this thread! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Thanks Fishy. At least 13 pages (so far) have not been added to our 'Sweep' thread though. I will re-look at the LD commands. Nice one RDS ;o) As for the IF / THEN I am sure it will all be much clearer when WHEN we have LD and can play with it. So Loco Dementia is coming if we can remember, it may be said by some there is a Limited Delay, sometimes we cannot help but wonder if there are Lost Documents holding it up, we all keep waiting for it to Land Daily on the Hornby website, I suppose 'some' will feel like Lucky Ducks when it does arrive which I guess leads us back to the... IF / THEN consideration...but whilst we wait we consider other systems lets hope they do not take to long to Launch Detection system for us to play with our trains or some will definately be considering the IF /THEN / ELSE option ;o) No doubt some already have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Good one PJ. One thing for sure, Christmas is fast approaching and will beat LD here, wherever here is. If you've been good, and if you've remembered to ask, then there may soon be a red box in your stocking. And L(.E.)D Zepelin may even be playing carols for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Time for a bit of a summary - Aesthetics - Winner - BD. LD not too bad but BD can't be beat on this issue. Installation / tinkering - Winner - LD. Clear winner for existing layouts but it's probably a tie for doing a layout from scratch - BD might even be easier. Also, if someone wanted to move sensors around then LD is clearly the better choice. Cost - BD Functionality / capability - even though LD will provide RM with loco IDs, other software for detection only systems can track locos very easily. This issue will be entirely dictated by software. Both systems basically detect trains at specific locations on the layout. Maintenance - BD is the clear winner here. All that's required is clean track, as is the case with any layout anyway, especailly DCC. Dust and dirt will surely be an issue for LD - time will tell how much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Good one PJ. One thing for sure, Christmas is fast approaching and will beat LD here, wherever here is. If you've been good, and if you've remembered to ask, then there may soon be a red box in your stocking. And L(.E.)D Zepelin may even be playing carols for you. No red boxes for me Fishy. Signals were added to RM October 2015, by April they were not working as they should. At the 5 month stage I made the decision NOT to buy any more Hornby products until they work. I spent a fortune on signals in good faith they would work as HRM always spend a long time testing and had included them. I had a Class 47 TTS on Pre-order which I received about that time but other than £27 on points/point motors I have not spent another penny on Hornby items, directly or indirectly, and I will not until my signals work. It is now 14 months. It has been a hard Christmas from this perspective, I had locos and coaches on my list family said they would buy. I have not allowed anyone to buy Hornby for me and have not purchased any Hornby directly or indirectly this year other than those stated. I wrote to an email to 'The Manager' at 'HRMS' and must be fair, they have now promised to sort the signals as a matter of urgency but have also asked me to take Christmas into consideration as it is a busy time. I naturally accept this and am grateful at last they are going to sort the issues for Ray and myself. There is so much I wanted or would have liked this Christmas, presents from others are a bonus on what I would spend myself, those sales for Hornby are lost est £400+ Not a fortune and I am only one person so it won't hurt them! But I continue to waiting patiently. Whose playing with Carols... I feel LED up the garden path with that one ;-D Blimey a message and no mention of LD must be nearly Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Time for a bit of a summary - Aesthetics - Winner - BD. LD not too bad but BD can't be beat on this issue. Installation / tinkering - Winner - LD. Clear winner for existing layouts but it's probably a tie for doing a layout from scratch - BD might even be easier. Also, if someone wanted to move sensors around then LD is clearly the better choice. Cost - BD Functionality / capability - even though LD will provide RM with loco IDs, other software for detection only systems can track locos very easily. This issue will be entirely dictated by software. Both systems basically detect trains at specific locations on the layout. Maintenance - BD is the clear winner here. All that's required is clean track, as is the case with any layout anyway, especailly DCC. Dust and dirt will surely be an issue for LD - time will tell how much. Gosh hosh... BD... It's your favourite I hadn't noticed until today ;o) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Gosh hosh... BD... It's your favourite I hadn't noticed until today ;o) Only because when and if I do a layout it'll be from scratch. :) Another thing that remains to be seen, is how up to 48 sensors will plug into the LD module - intriguing. I guess this might be another advantage of LD compared to the probable soldering at both ends of the wire for a BD system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Gosh hosh... BD... It's your favourite I hadn't noticed until today ;o) Only because when and if I do a layout it'll be from scratch. :) Another thing that remains to be seen, is how up to 48 sensors will plug into the LD module - intriguing. I guess this might be another advantage of LD compared to the probable soldering at both ends of the wire for a BD system. When and if you do a layout... Blimey hosh you are doing some groundwork Don't forget although we have trains and are trying to detect them, I think... You may also need a bus or two ;o) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 .......and another thing I just realised in the favour of LD (perhaps). For every piece of track that's not a block (not wired through the detector board), you need all those sections to be directly wired to the power supply. This is not a problem for anyone wanting the least voltage drop between their command station and locos, but it does force the issue on those that otherwise might no be so fussed. I'll add this to the next summary. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 @hosh.......and another thing I just realised in the favour of LD (perhaps). For every piece of track that's not a block (not wired through the detector board), you need all those sections to be directly wired to the power supply. You are thinking Block Detection again hosh With LD there are no blocks, the whole layout on DCC is live We simulate blocks with the sensors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 ... Top of page 7 of this thread! :) Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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