What Might RM with LD Know about Positions in the Future

[choralc]

Re the issue of running forwards or reverse I always thought that a bar code was a number written twice with one half of the barcode being the mirror image representation of that number so irrespective of the orientation of the barcode with the exception of the label stuck on upside down ;-) the code can be correctly identified. So it would not matter if a loco crossed a LD sensor/tag reader it would be identified and RM already knows that its throttle setting is either in forward or reverse.

 

Now of course someone will tell me that bar codes/ RM id tags are in fact orientation dependent.

[Fishmanoz]

Now on direction arrows.  Well spotted Ray that they are a necessity for LD.  Arrows have been there for ages but when first introduced, they seemed only to be for your convenience on the schematic, not as something needed for LD ( I wrote off hosh's previous comment about them on that basis).

 

Think about them though.  Now we have something that gives some spatial ability to the LD system where previously we had concluded (hosh excepted) there was none, and lately there has only been specific sensor x,y coordinates, no other positional information.  Think about combining direction of passing a sensor (hosh, I agree a standard barcode reading can't give direction but there's no reason not have a tag code that reads differently one way to the other - see CS's above posted while I was typing) with a direction arrow on the track adjacent to it.

 

An example of what the combination could do is in the oft-stated case of a train stopping at a station on a branch line.  Loco passes over sensor just before the station and is instructed to decelerate to a halt just before the buffers.  That's fine, but what happens when it leaves?  Without directional information, loco passes over sensor on leaving the station and is again instructed to decelerate to a halt!  It can't be avoided because that's what's programmed into the sensor.  But if it could be done conditionally on the direction it is going (coming into the station, it is going the same way as the arrow, leaving it is going the opposite way), now we are really getting somewhere.

[hosh]

Think about them though.  Now we have something that gives some spatial ability to the LD system where previously we had concluded (hosh excepted) there was none, and lately there has only been specific sensor x,y coordinates, no other positional information.  Think about combining direction of passing a sensor (hosh, I agree a standard barcode reading can't give direction but there's no reason not have a tag code that reads differently one way to the other - see CS's above posted while I was typing) with a direction arrow on the track adjacent to it.

 

The only thing that any tag could do is be non symetric and thus work out whether the train was in forward or reverse - no way any tag will ever decide east or west. The only exception is if you always run your trains in the same direction (east/west) on a given piece of track, thus forward might mean west and reverse east.

 

But that's a complete waste of time/money anyway since RM already knows whether the loco is in forward or reverse.

 

The only way to get real (east/west) directional information from the sensors is via order of tripping. So if sensor A is tripped first and then sensor B, and B is west of A, then the train's headed west. But if you didn't already know this then it probably had a head on collision with another train before it got to B! LOL.

[westernwill]

 RM knows the gear that the loco is in, forward or reverse, but it DOES NOT know in which the direction the train is travelling.

Only we know that because we can see it.

Now maybe these sensors have 2 sensors in them and the order in which they are triggered will determine the direction the train is moving.

This would explain the reasoning behind the arrows and having to make sure the sensors were set in the correct direction.

Just a thought.

[PJ_model_trains]

@howbiman @fishmanoz

 

I still believe a LD Bus could be possible, as stated using learn mode.

 

But having said that and re-considered my thoughts on our discusssions my thoughts are that it will be wired in.

 

My reasons for thinking this are based on the fact it is probably cheaper to create a module to be wired to 48 ports, it is from Hornby's perspective more positive or less risky (they have had to many issues with signals), finally from the users point of view although a lot of wiring if one port fails the module still works, we can easily install each sensor, we can easily test each sensor and the ports are easy for us all to understand. Hornby aims to bring new people into the hobby keeping sting up and using the system as simple as possible.

 

[PJ_model_trains]

... my knowledge of LD is pretty thin ...

 

Don't worry about that - everyone's knowledge of LD is pretty thin.

 

Good words of encouragement RDS  ;o)

 

I think sometimes I may change one word in your statement... the word 'wearing' rather than 'pretty'.

 

Joking aside we have learnt a lot... and we don't have LD yet!

 

[PJ_model_trains]

Has anyone noticed this statement on page 96 of the latest RM guide, under the heading of "Direction Indicators" ...

 

"You will need to place arrows on stretches of track when using the optional Loco Detection system. "

 

This suggests to me that, if the tag is a bar code, for example, the sensor may be able to tell which way the tag has swiped across it, thereby being able to work out which direction the tag is moving, ....... maybe ??? Would this mean that it would be necessary to orient the sensor in a particular direction when installing it ??? 

Aaagh! my brain hurts - I'm going to give it a rest for a week or two.

Ray

 

Hi Ray

 

The use of arrows in LD is interesting but how do they work?

 

The sensor reads a tag on a loco, read on the track as the loco goes over, sensor ID and loco tag ID to RM to process.

 

The arrows are on the schematic track not on the layout. Could this be why x,y co-ordinates are used? One for the sensor position in RM, one for the arrow in RM. This could provide direction but not speed as the Schematic is not a scale representation of our layout?

 

My next consideration would be, can RM distinguish the direction of the arrow or does it work on the basis of...

x,y of sensor followed by x,y of an arrow = direction loco is travelling (not necessarily forward or reverse) So in reality it wouldn't matter if the arrows were the wrong way round (though not recommended just using as an example) the system is not working on the item we see but the x,y co-ordinates of the sensor then the arrow.

 

So when the sensor is activated on the layout by a loco going over it, RM looks for what we have programmed but also looks for items like this which are programmed into RM by Hornby. Clever ;o)

 

So Bi-directional traffic may not be an issue

 

on our track would read as a loco goes over them.....

 

Sensor --->  for East to West or 

for West to East

 

Always reading the sensor then the arrow in that order.

The x,y co-ordinates use here makes this easy to do.

 

What are your thoughts?

[PJ_model_trains]

 RM knows the gear that the loco is in, forward or reverse, but it DOES NOT know in which the direction the train is travelling.

Only we know that because we can see it.

Now maybe these sensors have 2 sensors in them and the order in which they are triggered will determine the direction the train is moving.

This would explain the reasoning behind the arrows and having to make sure the sensors were set in the correct direction.

Just a thought.

 

Hi westerwill

 

See the idea floated above regarding the arrows mentioned by Ray, and how they may be used when a sensor is activated followed by it going over an arrow near to it. By reading the sensor x,y co-ordinate then the arrow x,y co-ordinates it knows 'which way' a loco is travelling, not necessarily whether it is going forwards or reverse.

 

[PJ_model_trains]

Now on direction arrows.  Well spotted Ray that they are a necessity for LD.  

An example of what the combination could do is in the oft-stated case of a train stopping at a station on a branch line.  Loco passes over sensor just before the station and is instructed to decelerate to a halt just before the buffers.  That's fine, but what happens when it leaves?  Without directional information, loco passes over sensor on leaving the station and is again instructed to decelerate to a halt!  It can't be avoided because that's what's programmed into the sensor.  But if it could be done conditionally on the direction it is going (coming into the station, it is going the same way as the arrow, leaving it is going the opposite way), now we are really getting somewhere.

 

Good example fishy

See the idea floated above regarding the order sensors are read and arrows passed over which would be simulated in the Schematic layout. Direction of travel being known by the software using the x,y co-ordinates of each, sensor then arrow, it would know the direction of the loco, it doesn't matter if the loco is going forwards or reverse.

[PJ_model_trains]

 

The only way to get real (east/west) directional information from the sensors is via order of tripping. So if sensor A is tripped first and then sensor B, and B is west of A, then the train's headed west. But if you didn't already know this then it probably had a head on collision with another train before it got to B! LOL.

 

In theory that seems logical hosh, but not with RM using LD.

The x,y co-ordinates of sensor and arrow on layout design can provide direction of loco.

 

East to West, West to East, North to South, South to North.

Inside station siding, out of station siding.

 

[Fishmanoz]

I'm not to sure about your use of coordinates with arrows and sensors PJ but an arrow will certainly have to be linked to a sensor in some way.  Maybe via arrow IDs and commands relating to them in sensor Actions.

[hosh]

Maybe the arrow will simply indicate the general direction of trains on that section of track i.e. the forward direction.

[PJ_model_trains]

I wasn't saying that is how it would be done but that is how it possibly could be done.

 

One could say the ID for the arrows are the x,y co-ordinates. An ID only needs to be another number for instance.

 

Taking 1 sensor and 1 arrow with co-ordinates as say

sensor 55,95

arrow 75,95

We would know the loco is going West to East

 

But if they were

sensor 55,95

arrow 35,95

We would know the loco is going East to West

 

From memory the x being the horizontal and y being the vertical

 

To me it seems a logical possibility, thanks to Ray for pointing out the Arrow as an important part of LD

[Fishmanoz]

Hosh, if just general direction indicators, that would seem to go against their being needed for LD.  It must be something more specific.

 

PJ, while you might be right, I don't think there is any indication to that effect, like right clicking an arrow to insert an ID and/or its coordinates?  I would expect another instruction in the sensor Actions set, something like For Direction = ???.

 

Also, yes you are right, convention says x is the horizontal axis, y the vertical.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, while you might be right, I don't think there is any indication to that effect, like right clicking an arrow to insert an ID and/or its coordinates?  I would expect another instruction in the sensor Actions set, something like For Direction = ???.

 

Fishy, as you will have read, I never said it would be, I don't see any indication at this time for what method it will be.

 

Discussion I think we are supposed to have on the forum Fishy!

 

Note: when talking of the x,y co-ordinates, sensors and arrows, I said... could be, (a possiblity to consider and discuss together)

you say... I would expect!

 

Unless you are paid by Hornby, or they have told you this, you don't know, I don't know, it was a discussion of possibilities based on new facts brought to the forums attention by several members, the forum is for all members to discuss matters relating to the subjects, not what one person expects, can we get back to an all member discussion please.

 

Credit to hosh for raising the question a week or so ago, as to what the arrows were used for in LD although dismissed at the time as we understood them to be just direction indicators

Credit to Ray for picking up the importance of the arrows, required for use with LD

Credit to yourself for picking up the x,y co-ordinates in the box in layout design

 

[Fishmanoz]

Only my opinion to promote discussion PJ, no intention to shut it down.  And purely speculation on my part beyond the facts of the x,y coordinates, the need for the arrows for LD and that LD will allow loco positions to be known.

 

And hard for me to miss the x,y coordinates, given the little birdie told me about them, and also told me nothing more would be said for now. 

 

Happy New Year to all, have just finished watching the SydNYE fireworks on TV and listening to them through my front door from 10km up the river.

[hosh]

An example of what the combination could do is in the oft-stated case of a train stopping at a station on a branch line.  Loco passes over sensor just before the station and is instructed to decelerate to a halt just before the buffers.  That's fine, but what happens when it leaves?  Without directional information, loco passes over sensor on leaving the station and is again instructed to decelerate to a halt!  It can't be avoided because that's what's programmed into the sensor.  But if it could be done conditionally on the direction it is going (coming into the station, it is going the same way as the arrow, leaving it is going the opposite way), now we are really getting somewhere.

 

This is already taken care of with -

 

For forward direction

For reverse direction

[hosh]

So btw, that's what I think the arrow will be for - if the train is in "forward" then that's it's direction and the sensor has instructions for that, other instructions for trains in reverse.

 

So again, it's really just a visual reminder to the user when programing at the sensors. A reminder of what the forward direction is.

[hosh]

Another thought -

 

If RM will show trains on the schematic with LD, then the direction arrows will mean a train is displayed as heading in that direction if in "forward", or the other way if in "reverse".

[Fishmanoz]

There would seem to be 2 concepts of forward.  The first is forward on the throttle and the second the same directions as in an arrow.  I can only suggest context might be the way to distinguish these.

 

Displaying locos on a schematic would certainly be useful.  Maybe not initially but in LD Pro?  And a challenge to implement real time as the schematic not to scale.

[PJ_model_trains]

So btw, that's what I think the arrow will be for - if the train is in "forward" then that's it's direction and the sensor has instructions for that, other instructions for trains in reverse.

 

So again, it's really just a visual reminder to the user when programing at the sensors. A reminder of what the forward direction is.

 

Hi hosh

What is the difference between these two ?

 

<---        --->

 

<---        --->

 

Which is forward and which is reverse?

 

<--- are the arrows

is the sensor

[PJ_model_trains]

There would seem to be 2 concepts of forward.  The first is forward on the throttle and the second the same directions as in an arrow.  I can only suggest context might be the way to distinguish these.

 

Displaying locos on a schematic would certainly be useful.  Maybe not initially but in LD Pro?  And a challenge to implement real time as the schematic not to scale.

 

LD Pro..... LOL

 

we got another member talking of LD Pro before we get LD

 

HRMS will be loving it

 

The positive to this is it just shows LD will be popular and do lots more, even more that it will when launched.

 

[hosh]

My point is simpler than you realise - the arrow indicates that trains only run in the direction of the arrow unless in reverse.

 

So there would be no forward in both directions - just the direction of the arrow.

[hosh]

From page 96 of the pdf

 

When designing larger layouts it is useful to indicate the normal direction of travel on certain lines. RailMaster allows you to add direction indicators to vertical and horizontal track sections. Simply right click on any horizontal or vertical track piece and a pop-up menu will appear with a selection of indicators . Click on the desired direction and the arrow will snap to the centre of the track piece. If you want to change an arrow just right click on a free area of the track piece and choose a new direction arrow from the menu. You can remove an arrow by clicking on the Remove entry.

You will need to place arrows on stretches of track when using the optional Loco Detection system.

 

I think it's a huge assumption that the first iteration of LD/RM will allow trains to travel in different directions other than reversing.

[PJ_model_trains]

My point is simpler than you realise - the arrow indicates that trains only run in the direction of the arrow unless in reverse.

 

So there would be no forward in both directions - just the direction of the arrow.

 

Spot on hosh

 

Neither Forward or Reverse, they are Directional Indicators for the loco/train that is passed over a sensor/arrow

 

The reason I put the two <---     ---> was to lead to an oval

 

  <---     --->

!                         !

  <---     --->

 

Visually - East to West on the bottom would be West to East on the top of the oval

 

The example was to help new members

 

LOCOS -  goes forward and reverse, they cannot move any other way. (Even on a turn off they do one or the other)

 

ARROWS - on our Schematic layout are for use within RM for LD they are just 'Directional Indicators' based on direction a loco has passed a sensor and then an arrow. (However they are read or processed)