What Might RM with LD Know about Positions in the Future

[PJ_model_trains]

I think it's a huge assumption that the first iteration of LD/RM will allow trains to travel in different directions other than reversing.

 

In RM we can send our locos forward or reverse - Directional movement

 

In RM when using LD the arrows are there to aid RM and LD know the direction a loco has passed a sensor and arrow bing - Directional Indicators

 

Locos can travel which way we send them the sensors and arrows confirm directional movement

 

 <---     --->

 

Would be read as

 <---         OR       --->

 

Always reading sensor first then arrow (however the data is read sensor and/or y,x co-ordinates of arrow, or both) 

 

[Fishmanoz]

My reading of your posts hosh and PJ is that you are still to some extent at least talking at cross purposes.  I think I understand what each of you is saying and you each seem to be coming from a different standpoint  

 

Hosh, I can't imagine that your hypothesis, that you can only run a loco forward on throttle in the arrow direction, will be the case.  I think the arrow is necessary for LD, as per the manual you quote, so you can run the other way without the throttle being in reverse.

 

Hence my 2 concepts for forward/reverse, throttle direction and arrow direction.  If they meant the same thing, you would only need one of them.

[37lover]

 

 

The positive to this is it just shows LD will be popular 

 

PJ,

I am reading these threads out of curiosity but bearing in mind how many [few] members are posting I can't see how it shows LD will be popular! Although it well may be.

[Howbi]

Railmaster manual says..............Reverse Direction ControlsHuman beings generally associate right with forward and left with reverse,however in real-life locomotive control left means forward and right meansreverse. The Hornby Elite’s built-in display uses the latter way of working.

So if you stand beside twin tracks with up & down lines this is true and is easily replicated on your model railway.......However, in the case of a single track, a dilema.........my view is  - if a train's normal route on this single line is east to west then that is regarded as forward and an arrow placed accordingly while at the same time if the same single track is also used in the opposite direction as part of the layout operation then that train going west to east is also going forward and another arrow placed on the track indicating that direction...........Two detectors would be positioned, each with an adjacent arrow and programmed accordingly so that RM would refer to the arrow at that sensor to confirm correct direction for each loco, each shown as going forward because you have planned it that way. HB

[hosh]

Here's a thought - reverse loop.

 

A way RM might deal with this is to have you tell it where the RL is and to position a sensor before entry to it. When this sensor is first triggered for train T, it remembers this and knows it just entered the loop. Upon the 2nd triggering, it allows the loco to continue in it's forward direction, but it now remembers it's direction as being in reverse. That way it knows what direction it is approaching sensors in and can handle signalling as per usual.

 

Kind of like reverse stereo! :)

[St1ngr4y]

Surely there needs to be differentiation between locos going forward and trains going forward. They will be different if a steam loco is pulling a train tender-first or a diesel is pulling a train with no. 2 cab first..... 

 

Ray

[Howbi]

Hi Ray...........I would assume that if you choose to run a loco tender first you would change CV29 to then make RM assume the loco was travelling forwards for the purpose of controlling it via LD or programs.  HB.

[PJ_model_trains]

In RM we can send our locos forward or reverse - Directional movement

 

In RM when using LD the arrows are there to aid RM and LD know the direction a loco has passed a sensor and arrow bing - Directional Indicators

 

Locos can travel which way we send them the sensors and arrows confirm directional movement

 

 

 

Would be read as

 

Always reading sensor first then arrow (however the data is read sensor and/or y,x co-ordinates of arrow, or both) 

 

The way I see it, I may be wrong, is that what LD sees is not necessarily what the loco driver sees.

Adding to this using Loco example mentioned by St1ngr4y

 

  [Carriages] [Loco]  --->  Loco/train is going forwards

  [Carriages] [ocoL]  ---> Train is going forward for RM Loco is in reverse

 

But for LD these are only direction Indicators

---> could be forwards or reverse however we view it. So could

 

I therefore cannot see at this stage how forward for a loco (actual) can always be forward on the Schematic layout, that can be viewed so many different ways. So unless someone can put it in a way to make me think otherwise this is what I understand...

 

The Loco is set to go forwards and reverse, they remain Directional movement according to orientation and settings for locos

 

On the Schematic Layout they are just Directional Indicators for the system to know and understand movement of or trains

 

[PJ_model_trains]

From the above I see three things...

 

1 - LOCO direction forward or reveerse according to what is forward and reverse for the loco

 

2 - TRAIN direction forward or reverse, train can go forward whilst Loco is in reverse

 

These two we see and understand

 

3 - LD/RM how it understands movement over the sensors for direction of travel

 

We don't need to understand so long as it knows and helps us with what we know and see.

 

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Ray...........I would assume that if you choose to run a loco tender first you would change CV29 to then make RM assume the loco was travelling forwards for the purpose of controlling it via LD or programs.  HB.

No way !!!  I might want to run a loco normally OR tender-first in the same session ...

Ray

[hosh]

Hi Ray...........I would assume that if you choose to run a loco tender first you would change CV29 to then make RM assume the loco was travelling forwards for the purpose of controlling it via LD or programs.  HB.

No way !!!  I might want to run a loco normally OR tender-first in the same session ...

Ray

 

My reverse stereo idea deals with that.

 

Lets say RM has a variable for every loco called, say, "Facing". This variable could have 2 values - Normal or Opposite.

 

For a train facing forward and heading in the same direction as the RM Arrow, it's Facing value is Normal.

 

If you run it tender first then the Facing value would be Opposite and you would manually set it that way.. You are running in reverse, so the Opposite variable means RM sees it's actual direction as forward and thus knows from what direction it is approaching sensors.

 

If you run a normal train through a reverse loop or whye then the Facing value would also become Opposite. RM would need to reset this value on the fly after the train exited the loop or whye.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ,

I am reading these threads out of curiosity but bearing in mind how many [few] members are posting I can't see how it shows LD will be popular! Although it well may be.

 

Keep reading 37

We have come a long way, HRMS are making significant advancements.  ;o)

You and many more will be looking and reading with interest.

 

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray...........I would assume that if you choose to run a loco tender first you would change CV29 to then make RM assume the loco was travelling forwards for the purpose of controlling it via LD or programs.  HB.

No way !!!  I might want to run a loco normally OR tender-first in the same session ...

Ray

 

My reverse stereo idea deals with that.

 

Lets say RM has a variable for every loco called, say, "Facing". This variable could have 2 values - Normal or Opposite.

 

For a train facing forward and heading in the same direction as the RM Arrow, it's Facing value is Normal.

 

If you run it tender first then the Facing value would be Opposite and you would manually set it that way.. You are running in reverse, so the Opposite variable means RM sees it's actual direction as forward and thus knows from what direction it is approaching sensors.

 

If you run a normal train through a reverse loop or whye then the Facing value would also become Opposite. RM would need to reset this value on the fly after the train exited the loop or whye.

 

hosh you are coming up with ideas that are no way suggested in the User Guide

 

The RM User guide 1.63 October 2015 says...

 

If you want to change an arrow just right click on a free area of the track piece and choose a new direction arrow from the menu.....  You will need to place arrows on stretches of track when using the optional Loco Detection system.

 

I stick with my current thoughts these are 'Directional Arrows' for LD to work with RM to know the 'direction' of a train or loco, not forward or reverse, RM already knows if the loco is going forward or reverse. The arrows are 'Direction Arrow' for the system to know 'Directional Movement' of the loco/trains within the RM system

 

It is a detection system, a sensor has to be passed over and a tag read for it to respond. Until then it is sleeping.

 

By passing over a sensor and for it to be activated, RM knows which sensor, RM knows which loco by the tag on the loco and us setting it up in RM. By considering the Sensor and tag ID's plus the x,y co-ordinates of maybe the sensor and very probably the arrow, the system knows what direction the loco is travelling in regard to the Schematic layout. 

 

It doesn't matter whether a train is going forward or reverse, it doesn't matter whether a train is going forward with a loco in reverse, RM needs to know what direction the train is travelling in the relation to the Schematic layout, it knows the 'Direction', by the sensor and 'Directional Arrow', first the detection and activation at the sensor and then the arrow relating to the line of, or direction of travel.

 

Train/Loco movement forward and reverse are totally separate to the directional movement on the Schematic layout.

 

[Fishmanoz]

This is certainly starting to confuse me, but I suspect we are mostly talking about the same thing.  I'll put my understanding simply, and it is best illustrated via the RL example, with that last appearing from hosh at the bottom of previous page 8.

 

For a start, I'm going to assume RM/LD isn't going to require we operate our locos any particular way, they will just deal with the way we do it.  I'm also going to assume CV29 settings won't come into it.

 

Consequently, I believe we have just 2 direction settings involved.  The first is whether the throttle is set forward or reverse.  The second is whether a loco is travelling in the same direction as a track arrow, or opposite to it (also designated, unfortunately, forward or reverse).

 

Does this sound reasonable to everyone, or do you see it differently (if so, I've misunderstood you)?

 

Just on locos v trains - to me it doesn't matter which end of the train the loco is or whether it has its"front" or "back" coupled to the train, the train can only be running in the same direction the loco is going.  And for this direction argument, it matters not if the train length is known by having an ID tag on the last carriage (note, the only way RM can handle this currently is if last carriage is set up as a dummy loco because only locos can have tag IDs set up).

[Howbi]

The question is Fishy, if a loco is running tender first and pulling a train forwards does the sensor run its program exactly the same as if the same loco was running boiler first?.........What we don't know is whether the ID tag is read both ways...........Then what happens when this same loco, running tender first normally, is actually reversed over a sensor which normally expects trains running forward...........Does this still activate signals/points etc up the road when the train is going the opposite way (eg: back into a siding) down the road..........I am still holding on to the idea that it would be necessary to change CV29 if you are going to run a loco tender first then RM/LD just treats it as going forwards in normal running.   HB.

[hosh]

hosh you are coming up with ideas that are no way suggested in the User Guide

 

Ray asked a question - I suggested an answer. Nothing to do with user guides. If it was in the user guide he'd have probably not been asking I'd guess. :)

[hosh]

.I am still holding on to the idea that it would be necessary to change CV29 if you are going to run a loco tender first then RM/LD just treats it as going forwards in normal running.   HB.

 

Doesn't help with reverse loops or whyes, but RM might not deal with them at all initially.

 

But come to think of it, since they sell RL modules, you'd probably think they would.

[PJ_model_trains]

This is certainly starting to confuse me, but I suspect we are mostly talking about the same thing.  I'll put my understanding simply, and it is best illustrated via the RL example, with that last appearing from hosh at the bottom of previous page 8.

For a start, I'm going to assume RM/LD isn't going to require we operate our locos any particular way, they will just deal with the way we do it.  I'm also going to assume CV29 settings won't come into it.

 

I think we are definately talking from different view points, but I am not sure at this stage about the reverse loop theory. Especially when we could have reverse loops in our layouts. 

 

I agree fully and tried to cover the issue of RM/LD, I agree this is out of our hands the system will deal with this. Noted in my previous post.

 

CV29 is definately a no no.

 

Consequently, I believe we have just 2 direction settings involved.  The first is whether the throttle is set forward or reverse.  The second is whether a loco is travelling in the same direction as a track arrow, or opposite to it (also designated, unfortunately, forward or reverse).

 

That also was my point, forward and reverse for locos is the direct movement of the loco controlled by us through RM. Where forward is forward and reverse is reverse as far as loco movement is concerned.

 

The loco direction on the Schematic is for direction of travel in the schematic based on first sensor and then the direction of the arrow. That is what I was saying but... whether forward and reverse are correct terms for direction of travel is debateable and probably not important. The direction here is for RM to know, it doesn't matter to us, the system knows. All we need to know is which way way are running out locos/trains.

 

Does this sound reasonable to everyone, or do you see it differently (if so, I've misunderstood you)?

 

As commented above.

 

Just on locos v trains - to me it doesn't matter which end of the train the loco is or whether it has its"front" or "back" coupled to the train, the train can only be running in the same direction the loco is going.  And for this direction argument, it matters not if the train length is known by having an ID tag on the last carriage (note, the only way RM can handle this currently is if last carriage is set up as a dummy loco because only locos can have tag IDs set up).

 

Those are the words, the terms I used... the train can only be running in the same direction the loco

LD with RM knows the DIRECTION of travel of the TRAIN no matter whether the LOCO is going forward or reverse.

Last carriage were not mentioned in the example and recent comments, it is assumed that we will group loco ID's for loco sets and have separate entries in another group for tenders wheere necessary, last carriages or wagons and guards vans. These should be simple to use providing we don't use coammands for ALL Locos only the loco ID's in what we set as our actual locos.

 

[hosh]

Btw, is there anyone now left with any doubt that RM will know where all trains are, what direction they're headed in and remember anything it wants or needs to?

[St1ngr4y]

........I am still holding on to the idea that it would be necessary to change CV29 if you are going to run a loco tender first then RM/LD just treats it as going forwards in normal running.   HB.

Ok so I have a terminus station where I can pull in a train boiler-first then uncouple, pull forward past the point, then run around to the other end of the train to take it back out tender-first. I suppose I could isolate the bit of track beyond the point and put in a two way switch so that I can flip it between operational DCC and programming track. Then I could change CV29 before running round the train .............. I don't think so !!!

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

HB, good point about reading tag direction.  I believe the detection of a tag must be able to be done both ways, and to also know which direction the loco is travelling on the layout as a result (same direction as an arrow or not), and it clearly also knows whether the throttle is set forward or reverse.

 

Hosh, I'm in no doubt that the position of locos will be known (let's leave trains out of this for now) because the manual tells me clearly on page 139 this is the case.  However, to achieve it, I find I need to hypothesise capability not currently built into RM.  Then for me, the simplest and most logical jump to such a hypothesis is that loco position will come from detection at known sensor locations. No other positional information is known.

 

And also for me, the schematic telling me that train T is now heading down Fishing line, isn't something I'll expect anytime soon, if at all.  For now it is nothing more than fishing.  It requires too many leaps of faith from known capability to have any credibility. But as always, I'd be happy  to be proven wrong and find this capability available in the release of v1.64, notwithstanding my belief it is unlikely before v3.00.

[hosh]

on tags reading differently in either direction -

 

• would require putting the tags on the trains in the right direction (Hornby could get a lot of problems from that in terms of support). Maybe it could be initialised no matter how installed but still more customer confusion.
• not needed - forward and reverse known

[Fishmanoz]

I believe we need to know which direction a tag and hence a loco passes of a sensor so that instructions can be conditional on direction, in accordance with existing instruction set (For forward direction, For reverse direction, For any direction).

[hosh]

I believe we need to know which direction a tag and hence a loco passes of a sensor so that instructions can be conditional on direction, in accordance with existing instruction set (For forward direction, For reverse direction, For any direction).

 

Which is the whole point of the arrow.

[PJ_model_trains]

The manual clearly states arrows WILL be needed for RM

The x,y co-ordinate settings have been noted

 

Detection and arrow by x,y co-ordinates and or other means seems to me how RM knows direction of loco.

 

The sensor is a port number, the arrow and possibly the sensor have x,y co-ordinates

The loco has a Tag ID

The signal adjacent the sensor also has a Port number

Whilst we are considering loco, sensor, signal and arrows

 

LD with RM will have already processed... ID's, Port numbers and x,y co-ordinated and know which loco passed over which sensor and in what direction. The number crunching will be done faster than we can blink, end result we are running our locos, forward or reverse, and RM knows the direction the loco is travelling on the track in our Schematic layout.