Turning triangle Wye

[Markaous]

Hi there, 

 

Long time forum looker, first time thread maker. I have been playing with Hornby sets for about 10 years now, over half my life. With some free time and space on my hands right now I decided to go a bit more adventurous with a main and branch line set, models, scenery etc. Perhaps even a elevated mine incline idea I would love some feedback on too.  

 

My question is about track. Hopefully I can add a pic link below but at the end of my branch line I would love to make a Wye or turning triangle, saw one on a real railway in a documentary and have spent a few months trying to making it reality, I got the track together but the electricity factor seems to be an issue. 

 

The Wye is a y point, leading in two curves of r606s to a right and a left hand point on either side. They are connected by straights. 

 

An engine comes up through one angle of the Wye, reverses over another point then is facing the opposite direction.

 

Basically I can connect this Wye by any point of this triangle to my branch line, I just need help. I have numbed the points so please try your best to help me understand where something like isolating fish plates should go or anything. If the images doesn't show up I shall reupload it. I would really like some tips before plugging it all in only to blow up my controller and locos. 

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=10x4r9v&s=9#.VphCqq_fWrU

 

I am currently plan my to run my very well working 10 year old pannier tank with my r965 controller. No real intention of going newer and more expensive with DCC right now. 

 

Hope to get a discussion and some great tips going from people who love trains like I do. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[Markaous]

An idea is either to have the branchline lead into point 2 or 3, really like some expert help guys thank you

[Fozzy Bear]

Gday Markaous.

I see what you mean. Basically the right hand track leading in will end up as the left hand track coming out. It woud be easy with DCC but DC will be a challenge. I will have a think about it and make up a schematic. I am an electrical technician so this is the sort of stuff I do at work. It will be possible but may require some auxillary relays etc so I will get back to you. Somewhere in the world someone else has probably already done this so a forum member might have a link.

 

Bryan

[Buz]

 

 Hi markaous

Sounds good the picture link my end doesn't work

When you make the triangle you automaticaly build in a short cct the wiring for a triangle is fairly straight forward, and you will need IRJ's (Inslated rail joints) and a switch I can't remember off the top of my head how its done but its not complicated.

If you are DC and unsure about the wiring get yourself a Good pre DCC wiring booK you will find a lot can be done with DC and that it is not that hard to do.

Right now to a triangle's biggest problem and that is that they chew up a lot of valuable real estate so if you  are going to use one, I sugest the Australian way

Which is to have the station at the base of the triangle and for model purposes on the inside if you have a big enough triangle along with loco shed and any other railway facillaties that will fit inside it.

However if you are only running tank engines up the branch the question does need to be asked do you need a triangle.

While designing your layout try and think a bit like a real railway builder as well as a railway modeler.

If it helps incorperate into your design work a fictional cost per sqare foot of space the railway occupies, this will help balance the railway to landscape and cut out track work that is just not needed for operational requirements.

It will be a balancing act between two very different ideas railway modellers and tourists want spectacular scenery those same words scare the hell out of engineer's as it meens construction difficulties and high costs.

But most of all have fun and enjoy the whole process because this last line is what it's all really about.

regards John

 

 

 

 

[Fozzy Bear]

Had a think and have worked out how to do it but I need to know how you are changing the points i.e manually or with a solenoid and switch. If manual,my design won't work. Basically, what will happen is that point 2 and all the track behind it will get its supply from whichever track the points are selected to. This will prevent the short circuit from occuring. So far, I can see you will need 2 insulating fishplates and a 2 pole double throw 12V relay (about $4-5 from ebay) as well as the point motor and switch. I will get some beer, sit down and refine the design as some sort of interlock would be nice in case you drove up the track and the points were the wrong way. Once I am happy that it will work, I will draw it out , take some photos and post them up.

One disadvantage of this idea is that your controller polarity will be backwards once you turn the loco around. What was forward will now be reverse. No big deal unless you are running 2 trains at once. Watch this space

[LCDR]

 A simple method manually in DC would be to fully insulate one leg of the wye with four insulated fishplates one each on both rails at the outlet of the points serving it. and supply the feed from the controller to this leg via a double pole double throw switch.

This means the supply to the main layout is not affected by moves round the wye, but every move on the wye will need to stop on the switched leg, and the switch thrown and controller reversed before the train moves off again.

[The Doc]

LC&DR is spot on with the simplest solution - a Double pole double throw switch is needed to reverse polarity, and 4 insulating fishplates (rail joiners) to prevent short circuits.  I've attempted to upload your photo, and my attempt at a wiring diagram (back of a large white envelope).

How to operate:  this won't make much sense until you see the photos, but here goes.  

1. Set points 1 and 2 and the DPDT switch as shown so the train drives from the main line (below Point 1) and takes the left hand fork, travelling beyond point 2.  
2. Change point 2, and reverse your controller, so that the train travels along the top straight of the triangle from left to right beyond point 3.  
3. Then change point 3, point 1 and the DPDT switch.  
4. Turn the controller in the same direction as for step 2, and the train will travel from 3, beyond 1 and back onto your mainline.  It has been turned around and is travelling in the opposite direction to when it arrived (with the controller switched in the opposite direction too, as you would expect).

 

/media/tinymce_upload/3933f3128db531ebdf416f08734b0c62.jpg

Wiring diagram:

/media/tinymce_upload/922ff91a49254c8c0644c2214dbb16c8.jpg

I suspect you would have to do exactly the same with DCC as well to avoid a short circuit, but won't have to change the direction of the controller in step 2.

[The Doc]

LC&DR is correct, but to explain further, I'll try to post pictures (I tried once yesterday but was timed out) of how to wire up a turning triangle. This wiring only works if you have Hornby or other insulated frog points (not peco electrofrog)

This won’t make much sense until you see the pictures.

1. Set the points 1 and 2, and DPDT so that a train runs from the main running line below Y point 1 to beyond point 2 on the left hand branch.
2. Now set point 2 and point 3, reverse your controller and let the train run across the top of the triangle to beyond point 3.
3. Now switch the DPDT switch, and points 3 and 1.
4. With the controller switched in the same direction as for step 2, drive the train from point 3 past point 1 back on to the main running line.
5. Your train has now been reversed, is running in the opposite direction from the start, with the controller set in the correct direction for this.

Hope this helps.

[Twintop]

It certainly can be done, but is one of those wiring issues that once you have done it, its straightorward, but takes a lot of "getting your head around it". The DPDT  switch is definitely needed and the purpose of this is to be able to energise the the section  from either end of the section but only from one end at a time. The train cannot rbe run straight through.

 

It must be run into the section using power from one end, stopped, the DPDT switch thrown to select power from the exit direction and then the train can be driven off.  

 

I found it worthwhile to draw a wiring diagram and I would also recommend you get three lengths of track on the bench which are isloated from each other and test the switch/wiring on this arrangement and then you should be able to understand and transfer the knowledge to the actual layout. .   , 

[Gordonvale]

I have this on my DC layout. I use plastic fishplates on both rails of both curves of the triangle. I use an additional controller to power the section containing the y-point, which, in my case, leads to a terminal station. No switches required with this method.

[Markaous]

Hi everyone, 

 

thank you all so much for your insight, especially Fozzy, knew this would be a great idea

 

cheer

 

Admin edit: Removed email address

[96RAF]

@Mark

Nice way of fudging your email address, even I could get back to you if I had anything to add apart from you should treat a Wye as a reversing loop that can be accessed from any one of its 3 ends rather than just in and out the one end.

 

As stated earlier draw the Wye left and right rails and do the red/black logic with a wagon, then put in insulated rail joiners/rail breaks and work out where you need to connect your DPDT switch or switches to take control of the necessary phase swaps to avoid short circuits.

 

It really is easy once you draw it out.

[Fozzy Bear]

This is a drawing of the wiring as I would do it for point 2 of your picture. I added a section in each of the other tracks to prevent any possibility of a short as from what I could tell from photos of insulated fishplates (never seen one up close) ,if a train ran over one, there would still be a short time when the wheel touches both sides and thus create a short. This way it is impossible. If you drove off with the DPDT switch in the wrong position, the train will just stop dead. The worst thing that could happen now is to drive the train against the points (but no one has ever done that, have they?)

If you make the operation of the points electric, the switch is just replaced with a relay (with some latching circuits added). That way, the operation of the relay is linked to the point motor and there can never be any little mistakes

/media/tinymce_upload/c18979478799f61a1f966c1570e90d48.jpg

[The Doc]

Fozzy,

 

I've used peco insulating fishplates for years and never had a problem.  The way I have wired it, if the DPDT switch is set correctly, the section of track the loco is leaving will have the same polarity as the section it is joining, so there will be no short circuit.  But you are correct in that, if the DPDT switch is set the wrong way, it'll cause a short as some of the loco wheels will be powered in one direction and some in the other.

[LCDR]

 Looking a DOCs diagrams, which looks good to me,  I'd only add that if the insulated fishplates are at the joint next to the points off the main line rather than half way along the legs of the wye it give a bit more 'wriggle' room to halt the train or loco while you change polarity. You can then do it on the way in, when standing at the top of the wye or when on the way out, without worrying too much if the train is standing over the break.