Forum-1211528 Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Hornby should consider bringing back Triang locos from the fifties and sixties there is a collectors market for these and nobody else has made a new alternative these include the Class 81 Electric, Stepple cab Electric, 748 saddle tank and the former TRACKMASTER range which Triang purchased in the Fifties there is scope here to revive these classics and i have original locos sixty years old and would love new versions if Hornby can get this tooling out again!
LCDR Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Lovely idea, but I doubt if the tooling still exists and even if it did it is probably no longer usable, having been stored for such a long time.However all these models do turn up fairly regularly on auction sites and at toy fairs. The 748 sdaddle tank is usually quite cheap, as are the Trackmaster trucks, van and open, although the steeple cab and 81 are somewhat more 'collectable'.Personally I'd like to see the L1 and Stephenson's Rocket back again, but with wheels to current standards.
walkingthedog Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 If they started making them again would they be lost Triang locos for collectors or would collectors say "they're just modern replicas, not the same at all"?
LCDR Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Undoubtedly the latter. The originals have an appeal that modern replicas cannot hope to have. Note that Hornby ARE bringing out an updated 'replica' of an old Tri-ang type, the B12/3! Others that Triang used to do but have been made by Hornby in recent years include -LMS 3F 0-6-0TPrincess Royal 4-6-2350 hp 0-6-0 diesel shunterCaledonian 123 *Metro Cammell DMUBritanniaWest CountryBrush type 2 A1A A1Aand now the B12/3All have been improved, and retooled now with scale length (except *) and finer scale wheels. Ones that haven't made a come back are the 'S' class 0-6-0ST, the Midland 3F 0-6-0, the Dock Shunter, BR 3MT 2-6-2T, 3Sub EMU, Steeple cab, EM2, Lord of the Isles, Nellie, L1 4-4-0, Stephenson's Rocket, the Blue Pullman, Class 81, and none of the Transcontinentals. There are a few here that do warrant consideration.
AndyMac1707817969 Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 I guess if you could find 50 people willing to pay £10,000 a loco it might work...
Forum-1211528 Posted January 22, 2016 Author Posted January 22, 2016 Most of the Triang tooling exists i saw it at Margate the exceptions are that small 040 diesel the tooling was broken, the dock shunter vanished in the late 70s and the TRIANG 08 shunter the tooling was used to make the Devious Diesel in the thomas range hence tooling originally used in the fifties disintergrated! I would love the BATTLESPACE CAR made again these are getting rare and the tooling for it still exists!
Fazy Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 The collectors market is for the old stuff not new. And what would you want inside the old motors are out of production. Some redesigning would be needed for new motors to fit has your at it new wheels to today's profile can be fitted do we then bring them to the correct scale length which brings problems of the body fitting. Do you want dcc fitting that will bring its own problems. Also hornby already as multiple rages which one do you put it in. What price would you be happy to pay.
AndyMac1707817969 Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Think Hornby should concentrate on high quality, highly detailed and accurate models instead, It is clearly what the vast majority of the market is looking for and expect.Though the bottom had completely dropped out of the collectors market for old Triang anyway.
Buz Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Hi allNo point the colectors will not buy them because they are not Triang locomotives.On the other hand with new tooling for the locomotives for railway modelers might be a goods idea.regards John
Tony57 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 HiI am building up my collection of Triang and Triang Hornby Locos and rolling stock, as well as new Hornby and others, so I can see both sides of the discussion, Yes I would like to see new old size replacement updated bodies made to replace the older plastic ones that are becoming brittle and warped. I would also like to see brand new X04 being made but the winding machine is no longer working. OK the X04 may not be as good as some of the new ones in todays locos but they could be developed into becoming better and they are home servicable unlike the new ones.The transcon range was made for the commonwealth with some for the home market, I put a thead on here about it and so few on here run it I doubt that there is a large market for it.
LCDR Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 I too have a large collection of Tri-ang as well as modern Hornby, both give me a lot of pleasure, but I would NOT buy a replica of early Triang loco or rolling stock using the old tooling, but I would like to see new models to modern realistic standards, of some of the types Tri-ang used to make. Old Tri-ang models are NOT rare, a few tend to more expensive because there are less of them and therefore more collectable, but I have managed to buy examples of most Triang rolling stock at very low prices at Toy Fairs and similar. For example I have five EM2s,an two Class 81s, seven complete 3Sub units, two double ended TC electrics, four steeple cabs (two of them the Primary series), five Baltic tanks, ten 'Nellies' and goodness knows how many Princesses, Jinties, etc, etc. ALL of these were bought within the last ten years! I go to toy fairs about every two months and scout out bargains, and there are always hundreds of old Tri-ang locomotives and rolling stock that I don't buy. If Hornby WERE to start making replica Tri-ang locos and rolling stock they would NOT sell, because the second hand stuff sells well below the cost of new manufacture. Last Toy Fair I bought a Princess loco, £12, and a runner at that. Triang coaches go for £5 to £10, wagons £3 - £5. If you want boxes, the Triang Society make excellent replica Tri-ang boxes in a good variety of sizes.
Ruffnut Thorston Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Undoubtedly the latter. The originals have an appeal that modern replicas cannot hope to have. Note that Hornby ARE bringing out an updated 'replica' of an old Tri-ang type, the B12/3! Others that Triang used to do but have been made by Hornby in recent years include -LMS 3F 0-6-0TPrincess Royal 4-6-2350 hp 0-6-0 diesel shunterCaledonian 123 *Metro Cammell DMUBritanniaWest CountryBrush type 2 A1A A1Aand now the B12/3All have been improved, and retooled now with scale length (except *) and finer scale wheels. Ones that haven't made a come back are the 'S' class 0-6-0ST, the Midland 3F 0-6-0, the Dock Shunter, BR 3MT 2-6-2T, 3Sub EMU, Steeple cab, EM2, Lord of the Isles, Nellie, L1 4-4-0, Stephenson's Rocket, the Blue Pullman, Class 81, and none of the Transcontinentals. There are a few here that do warrant consideration.The Midland 3F has been done elsewhere, as has a 3F Tank (Jinty), BR 3MT Tank, EM2 "Woodhead" Electric, and Blue Pullman.... The 2-Bil is similar to the Tri-ang SR "SUB" Type EMU, which was a mix of styles, and designed to match the existing BR type Suburban Non-Corridor Coaches... The real "S" Class Tank Loco was a one off...a converted SE&CR "C" Class 0-6-0 Tender Loco (Model made elsewhere, so a faint possibility?) The Dock Shunter was made to fit the existing MK2 Transcontinental Power Bogie...though it has a resembance to a Hunslet shunter built for export, I did see a photo somewhere! It is surprising that Lord Of The Isles has not been China Made, as it was the original model for the chassis used by Caley 123 (Hence this model being compromised to fit the chassis!).Only the chassis for the 123 has been (almost?) totally re-tooled I think (New Motor, Pick-up arrangements, baseplate, etc.)....I think the body is still mainly Tri-ang? I only have experience of the Original Models! Lord of The Isles was made in a Train Pack (With the Short GWR Celestory Coaches) by Hornby (Margate) more recently than the 1960s...the last ones had nickel plated wheel tyres on the loco, and the Black Delrin Worm on the XT.60 Type Motor....(But no smoke unit...1960 only! ;) )
81F Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Undoubtedly the latter. The originals have an appeal that modern replicas cannot hope to have. Note that Hornby ARE bringing out an updated 'replica' of an old Tri-ang type, the B12/3! Others that Triang used to do but have been made by Hornby in recent years include -LMS 3F 0-6-0TPrincess Royal 4-6-2350 hp 0-6-0 diesel shunterCaledonian 123 *Metro Cammell DMUBritanniaWest CountryBrush type 2 A1A A1Aand now the B12/3All have been improved, and retooled now with scale length (except *) and finer scale wheels. Ones that haven't made a come back are the 'S' class 0-6-0ST, the Midland 3F 0-6-0, the Dock Shunter, BR 3MT 2-6-2T, 3Sub EMU, Steeple cab, EM2, Lord of the Isles, Nellie, L1 4-4-0, Stephenson's Rocket, the Blue Pullman, Class 81, and none of the Transcontinentals. There are a few here that do warrant consideration.The Midland 3F has been done elsewhere, as has a 3F Tank (Jinty), BR 3MT Tank, EM2 "Woodhead" Electric, and Blue Pullman.... The 2-Bil is similar to the Tri-ang SR "SUB" Type EMU, which was a mix of styles, and designed to match the existing BR type Suburban Non-Corridor Coaches... The real "S" Class Tank Loco was a one off...a converted SE&CR "C" Class 0-6-0 Tender Loco (Model made elsewhere, so a faint possibility?) The Dock Shunter was made to fit the existing MK2 Transcontinental Power Bogie...though it has a resembance to a Hunslet shunter built for export, I did see a photo somewhere! It is surprising that Lord Of The Isles has not been China Made, as it was the original model for the chassis used by Caley 123 (Hence this model being compromised to fit the chassis!).Only the chassis for the 123 has been (almost?) totally re-tooled I think (New Motor, Pick-up arrangements, baseplate, etc.)....I think the body is still mainly Tri-ang? I only have experience of the Original Models! Lord of The Isles was made in a Train Pack (With the Short GWR Celestory Coaches) by Hornby (Margate) more recently than the 1960s...the last ones had nickel plated wheel tyres on the loco, and the Black Delrin Worm on the XT.60 Type Motor....(But no smoke unit...1960 only! ;) ) In addition to Lord of the Isles the dean sigle hasa also been released as Lorna Doone, Duke of Edinburgh and possibly Royal soverign (as well as Emily in the thomas range. As to Motors I currenly have a B12 in bits (a recent blue one) and notice that the small open framed motor is held in a plastic cradle so that it fits the X04 mounting (also used in Fowler 2-6-4Ts, so this could be an option instead of the X04
81F Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Undoubtedly the latter. The originals have an appeal that modern replicas cannot hope to have. Note that Hornby ARE bringing out an updated 'replica' of an old Tri-ang type, the B12/3! Others that Triang used to do but have been made by Hornby in recent years include -LMS 3F 0-6-0TPrincess Royal 4-6-2350 hp 0-6-0 diesel shunterCaledonian 123 *Metro Cammell DMUBritanniaWest CountryBrush type 2 A1A A1Aand now the B12/3All have been improved, and retooled now with scale length (except *) and finer scale wheels. Ones that haven't made a come back are the 'S' class 0-6-0ST, the Midland 3F 0-6-0, the Dock Shunter, BR 3MT 2-6-2T, 3Sub EMU, Steeple cab, EM2, Lord of the Isles, Nellie, L1 4-4-0, Stephenson's Rocket, the Blue Pullman, Class 81, and none of the Transcontinentals. There are a few here that do warrant consideration.The Midland 3F has been done elsewhere, as has a 3F Tank (Jinty), BR 3MT Tank, EM2 "Woodhead" Electric, and Blue Pullman.... The 2-Bil is similar to the Tri-ang SR "SUB" Type EMU, which was a mix of styles, and designed to match the existing BR type Suburban Non-Corridor Coaches... The real "S" Class Tank Loco was a one off...a converted SE&CR "C" Class 0-6-0 Tender Loco (Model made elsewhere, so a faint possibility?) The Dock Shunter was made to fit the existing MK2 Transcontinental Power Bogie...though it has a resembance to a Hunslet shunter built for export, I did see a photo somewhere! It is surprising that Lord Of The Isles has not been China Made, as it was the original model for the chassis used by Caley 123 (Hence this model being compromised to fit the chassis!).Only the chassis for the 123 has been (almost?) totally re-tooled I think (New Motor, Pick-up arrangements, baseplate, etc.)....I think the body is still mainly Tri-ang? I only have experience of the Original Models! Lord of The Isles was made in a Train Pack (With the Short GWR Celestory Coaches) by Hornby (Margate) more recently than the 1960s...the last ones had nickel plated wheel tyres on the loco, and the Black Delrin Worm on the XT.60 Type Motor....(But no smoke unit...1960 only! ;) ) In addition to Lord of the Isles the dean sigle hasa also been released as Lorna Doone, Duke of Edinburgh and possibly Royal soverign (as well as Emily in the thomas range. As to Motors I currenly have a B12 in bits (a recent blue one) and notice that the small open framed motor is held in a plastic cradle so that it fits the X04 mounting (also used in Fowler 2-6-4Ts, so this could be an option instead of the X04
LCDR Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 The so-called 'S' is a typical Tri-ang compromise. The original SE&CR 'S' class was converted by Richard Maunsell in 1917 from 0-6-0 goods loco 'C' class designed by Harry Wainwright to shunt at Bricklayers Arms. It proved to be a huge flop because the saddle tank was too high for normal SE&CR water cranes. The real engine retained the 'C' class smoke box, but Tri-ang fitted theirs with a psudo-LMS one. When diesels were introduced in 1950 at B' Arms BR transferred it to St. Leonards and Ashford but the old problem reasserted itself and it was consigned it to Ashford scrap sidings. The Tri-ang '3 Sub', is another compromise. It is certainly nothing like a 2Bil, other than a superficial resemblance to the cab and roof front profile, thereafter any similarity disappears. The roof profile suggests an ex-LBSCR origin for the body. The SER & LSWR used eliptical roof profile whereas the LBSCR used arc roofs. The 2Bil set was designed for outer suburban long distance services, all sets were built new, all compartments were connected to a lavatory at the inner ends of both carriages, and they featured the distinctive Maunsell High Window on the corridor side. 2Bil bodies were 9 feet wide. The SR 3Sub units were a hotch potch of old bodies on new underframes. And I mean REALLY OLD bodies too, ex four and six wheelers of SER, LBSCR or LSWR origins. These were 8 feet wide for maximum availability, so could only seat five adults on each side of the compartment. The driving cabs were steel sheet over timber frames, but the rest of the bodies were all timber. There was no corridor and definately no lavatories. The problem with the Triang model is the length and spacing of compartments. The Triang model is based on a a 9 inch coach (equivalent to 56 foot) with five compartments in the motor coach, three less than it should have.The 3Subs were mounted on new 62 foot long underframes and so far as practicable the driving motor coaches had eight compartments plus guard and luggage, and the intermediate trailer composite had nine. (sometimes ten if it was an all third)..A small batch were built new to a similar overall capacity, with 8 foot 6 inch wide, bodies, some for the South Eastern on 62 foot underframes and a few on 58 foot underframes with one less compartment per coach for the South Western section. (still two compartments more than the Triang coach!) Ironically it is one of these rare short ones that is in the NRM! In the 1940s an extra carriage was added to the sets to make them up to 4 cars. Many of these additional carriages were new 'all steel' Bullied vehicles 9 feet wide and were instantly recognisable. Knowledgable travellers would look for these because there was greater elbow room in them. War damaged sets were broken up and usable carriages used for this 'augmentation' scheme. The Southern was a master at re-cycling. The new Bullied design 'all-steel' 9 foot wide 4Sub stock was mounted on the underframes taken from the pre-War stock. The old ex- 4 and 6 wheel wooden bodies were removed and burned. This took place at Newhaven. The underframes were taken to Eastleigh where the whole thing was refurbished, with new electrical gear, and a new welded all steel body fixed on top. The extra carriages used for the 3 to 4 augmentation scheme were reused too, as they had the new style bodies they slotted straight in. After about 200 of these trains had been modernised but retaining the Westinghouse brakes and MV control gear, BR updated the design and turned out 200 more with electro-pneumatic brakes (EPB) and modern control gear. but with similar all-steel bodies. A proper model of the 4Sub is really needed, rather than trying to resurect the old Triang one. Ideally the Bullied design which served South East London loyally for 45 years.
AndyMac1707817969 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Producing a low quality model just sullies the market and greatly decreases the chances of a better model being produced. I would be fairly certain now most model manufactures would look at the market, and estimate how much demand there really is for a specific model before they even think about producing one. If a poor quality version is produced then it will appeal to only a percentage of the potential market but will remove those people from the pool making a good quality model a lot less likely.If you want a new body for a Tri-ang loco surely the most realistic option is to knock a few off on a 3D printer. Persuading Hornby to scan or allow the scanning of any moulds and produce files that can be used by a 3D printer would at least be a half sensible approach but I doubt even that would make any economic sense unless some third party would undertake it for free.
LCDR Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 In fairness the Railroad range (at least the locos) shows you can produce a budget priced model that maintains high quality. The paint scheme is well applied, the locos run smoothly and reliably. Older tooling if basically sound to start with can be brought up to modern standards. However a lot of the old Tri-ang stuff was freelance, the models were dimensionally wildly inaccurate, some of the model making techniques were questionable (example - the gap where the carriage door fits into the body side was represented by a raised beading and not a groove!). Let us keep Triang (and Hornby Dublo) where it belongs in cherished collections of original models, and go forward with new high quality models as Hornby is doing currently.
AndyMac1707817969 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 I do agree LC&DR point I was sort of trying to make was say if Hornby had rehashed the Tri-ang Blue Pullman for example then I doubt very much we would never have got the 'other one'. I am sure this was the very reason there was so much secrecy surrounding the new version of it until Olivia Trains threw a spanner in the works.Produce models to the latest standard and then produce a cut back version for the Railroad range such as was done for the P2, not the other way round.
10 Class Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Why is everyone bothering with this subject, as everyone knows it is not going to happen!There are no "Lost Triang Locos", as we all know where they are ie, at the tip, stored in attics, cupboards, sheds & and of course on the layouts. (And usually running) I live in Australia, (So what you say!) and i have collected a huge amount of Tri-ang locally and from aroud the globe, so it is not that hard to find except for the rarer items such as the Sydney Suburban Electric. (Even in Aus, they don't turn up very often and are mega expensive when thy do.)I would say that you Brits, already have the bulk of Tri-Ang anyhow, so maybe you could get the word out to clean out the attics, cupboards & sheds!I love the Tri-Ang, as you can obtain spares easily and actually work on it to bring it back to life, and i can't see anyone doing that with current models in 60 years time! (All they have really improved is the detail of the models and a larger range! There wouldn't be enough Tri-Ang Collectors to justify it anyway, so i say "Donr bring back the lost Tri-Ang for Collectors!
AndyMac1707817969 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Of course it is not going to happen, I doubt much suggested on this forum ever is. 'I would probably buy one and so might my mate' is no way to conduct market research
The son of Triangman Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 I have to disagree with you Andy Mac about low quality models messing up the marketplace. If that was right a lot of today's china made stuff would have messed the marketplace up with it's poor build quality and disposable can motors. You are confusing level of detail with quality which are two different things
The son of Triangman Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Tri-ang models still have their place in the range, in fact some of the models are still in the hornby range. I would sooner have a lesser detailed model that doesn't fall to bits out of the box when new or leave bits in the foor foot like today's models, a model that has a fully repairable and serviceable motor unlike today's cheapo china made models. Also build quality in China is variable, I have a Hornby claud hamilton here that is wedged so tight in it's packing you need a crowbar to remove it from the box. You never had that issue in the old days
The son of Triangman Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Tri-ang models still have their place in the range, in fact some of the models are still in the hornby range. I would sooner have a lesser detailed model that doesn't fall to bits out of the box when new or leave bits in the four foot like today's models, a model that has a fully repairable and serviceable motor unlike today's cheapo china made models. Also build quality in China is variable, I have a Hornby claud hamilton here that is wedged so tight in it's packing you need a crowbar to remove it from the box. You never had that issue in the old days
The son of Triangman Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Another build quality issue is modern loco's with their body screws done up too tightly. I've come across several china made Hornby locos that have come from the factory with body screws done up so tight they are impossible to undo without weecking the model. Then there's poor soldering, models arriving with bits laying in the box, valve gear like tissue paper, non-serviceable motors none of which you had with the old models
The son of Triangman Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 The old models were built to last and back to the original question, yes there is a big collectors market out there for the old models
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