Electrofrog points electrical error?

[70s kid]

I've just switched two 'normal' points (Hornby) for Peco express points. They are connected directly to each other back to back, pointing in opposite directions thus enabling change of tracks from outer to inner loops in either direction. The chap I bought them from in the shop asked did i want insulfrogs or electrofrogs. As I had put point-clips on my 'normal' points that I was replacing to keep the track live irrespective of which way the point was set, I asked for electrofrogs, presuming they were the ones to ensure live track connections always.

The problem is now they are fitted, the controller displays 'error' so I'm guessing there's a short caused by the new electrofrogs that are interconnected to each other but pointing in the opposite directions? If this is the case, is it a simple solution to fit insulated fishplates to break the short (if that's the problem) or do I have to switch them for insulfrog express points? The packaging says there is no need to modify for DCC. The only change I've made is replacing points so it must be due to that. There is a length of what appears to be fuse-wire underneath which would cause a short but i have it looped away from the other track and still getting 'error'? I haven't replaced the point clips as i think they aren't necessary - if I can get the power back on the track that is.

Many thanks

 

 

[dynax]

you need to fit insulated rail joiners to the V of the frog, as when you switch the point it will create a short as it reverses the polarity on the frog for the continuous power, this is just a brief solution there are more complex ways of frog switching using the point motors, but for now to get you up and running fitting the joiners will work for now,

[poliss]

The wire is to power the frogs so you don't have to rely on the switch rails for electrical connectivity.

See the section on live frog points on Brian Lambert's website.

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html#live

 

There's usually a detailed instruction sheet in the box. Didn't yours come with them?

[70s kid]

Thanks guys. I placed too much emphasis on the wording that stated no need to modify for DCC. Without knowing, I kinda 'knew' it needed insulated fishplates to resolve. Back to the model place in the morning

[poliss]

You'd need insulated fishplates with DC too.

[RDS]

You'd need insulated fishplates with DC too.

Are they really worth it?

[poliss]

As we all know, short wheelbase locos can stall over points. They shouldn't, but they do. Live frog points will prevent that from happening.

[Fishmanoz]

The so-called best practice advice for DCC tells us to use electrofrog points with auto frog switch, IRJs as noted above and cuts in the switch rails to extend the frog from the vee to ensure shorts don't occur there.  The larger Peco streamline points already have links you can cut easily to achieve this.

 

You can't do this easily though unless you are using motorised points which include in-built or separate frog switches.

[Howbi]

I only use 'insulfrog' points............4 parallel tracks joined by several sets of points plus sidings and only one power track and no IRJs...........whole layout live of course and never have any shorts or problems..........Elite & Select can have 6 locos moving at same time..........works for me.  HB.

[Cuthbert]

I am going to use electrofrog points on my new layout, and I appreciate the need for the insulated rail joiners. I also know that they can be used without modification by relying on the switch blades to switch the polarity of the frog. However, I am planning on using an automatic frog switch, rather than relying on the switch blades. The thing is, I can see no reason for cutting the switch blade connections under the point, because it means that you are once again relying on the switch blade's contact with the stock rails to transfer power to the switch blades. Does anyone know of a good electrical reason why I can't leave the switch blade connections in place, and the same time as using a sitched frog? I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't work, as there wouldn't be any chance of a short circuit.

[Fishmanoz]

I have an excellent reason Cuthbert, explaining my saying it is best practice - look at http://www.dccwiki.com/Wiring_Turnouts

Look at the second diagram down labelled DCC Friendly and note that, with the cuts, the switched part of the circuit includes the switch rails between the cuts and the frog, this ensuring the unswitched part of the switch rails are further apart and so avoiding any possibility of shorts occuring across these with wider wheel usually older locos.  It also shows how reliance on switch rail contact for electrical connection isn't an issue as you've suggested.

[Nick_]

And if you want to simplify the frog switching electrics you can use a frog juicer (Google hex frog juicer) Instead of a switch. 

[Fishmanoz]

Or you could just use the switch connections already on one of the integrated point motors/decoders/frog switch products.  DCC Concepts ADS series slow action is an example.  There are others.