Matt123x Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I have a number of older steam locos and have never had any problems with the front bogies derailing on points. However, I recently tried a new Duke of Gloucester and 2 different Railroad Cock O' the Norths and all 3 were unable to navigate a single set of my points without the front bogie derailing. One of the Cock O' the Norths could barely get around a 3rd radius curve without derailing.In contrast I have a Royal Lancer and a Seagull, both dating from the 1980s, which will navigate all of my points at full speed and almost never derail. Compared to these older models it seems that the newer Hornby models have much lighter front bogies and have smaller flanges on the wheels. I've tried putting some extra weight on the front bogie but there isn't space to put enough weight to make a difference. I've tried using older, deeper flanged wheels and this makes a slight improvement but not a massive improvement. I've also tried adjusting the b2b distance, again with no real improvement.I can't believe the newer designs are quite so bad. Why would they design models that derail so easily compared to older models? Do others have the same problems with new steam models or am I just unlucky in that the positioning of my points just doesn't suit them?Does anyone know if modern Bachman steam locos suffer from the same problems or do they tend to have heavier front bogies like older Hornby models did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Matt Hi, Look at the help with Tornado Thread. I have the P2 CON, TTS, and its faultness, as is my TTS Tornado. Have you tried at all speeds. Also, try backwards. Location of points, not a usual factor. All my points are Hornby, 16, on layout, and both locos are fine. On the other hand the TTS Empress of Canada, is particularly, finicky on points. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt123x Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Thanks John, perhaps I've been unlucky. I've tried all speeds - I can navigate some of the points OK if the loco is literally crawling but anything above a crawl and the front bogie derails. I've also tried backwards and that works fine, no derailments.I don't have any derailment problems with older steam locos or with new diesel locos. It seems to be the modern front bogies on steam models that are causing the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 @Matt123xI got a TTS CO'TN in the Hornby sale and it had this problem. No other loco derails like this on my layout. I didn't think I ought to have to weight the bogie on a new loco. I returned it to Hornby and the technical people agreed there was a fault and a full refund was issued. The whole bogie arrangement seemed to me, on the one I had anyway, to be way too light. R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Another great idea dead in the water...I have lots of small round neo magnets with a hole in the middle that my daughter uses to make jewellery - bangles, ear-rings, necklaces, etc and I figured glueing a couple of these onto an errant bogie would attract it to the rails - in the old Magna-hesion style. Doh - nickel silver rails from Hornby are not attracted to magnets. Don't know about other makes of track.Never mind they will get used at some time for loco detection purposes, although by then I might have to get SoT to re-magnetise them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt123x Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Thanks Roger. That's exactly what the problem seems to be. On both the Duke of Gloucester and the Cock O'the North the bogie is so light that it just won't stay on the tracks through points. It's noticeable how much heavier the front bogies are on the older models. Does anyone know if new Bachmann models have the same problem (or maybe I'm not meant to ask questions like that on this forum :))? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 It might not be the weight. It could be that the spring is too strong or too weak. It could also be the design of the connection to the loco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Well yes, it could be any number (or combination) of reasons - the end result is the bogie is lightweight in operation and comes off the rails. R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Nickel silver us not magnetic regardless who makes the track RAF, that's why Magna-hesion died a death. I'm afraid one of the reasons front bogies derail is the old 'fine detail' problem. People want locos to look just like the real thing, they want to see light between the top of the bogie and the frame etc. so the bogie is made thinner and lighter. Back to back measurement is the main culprit though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt123x Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Sadly there's no spring on these front bogies. They just attach to the loco via 2 pins that allow the bogie to pivot left and right and vertically. There's nothing to keep the bogie on the tracks, not weight, a spring or anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Given rogers experience, why dont you ring mark lodge at Hornby, as it would appear to be a known defect. I have his number, if thats what you decide to do. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Have you fitted the drain cocks to the cylinders and the front steps to the frame? These can prevent the bogie turning sufficiently on curves causing it to derail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt123x Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 No I haven't fitted these so the bogie can turn freely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Oki doki. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt123x Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Given rogers experience, why dont you ring mark lodge at Hornby, as it would appear to be a known defect. I have his number, if thats what you decide to do. john Thanks but there seems little point really. I can't see how Hornby can solve this problem for me as it seems to be a fundamental design flaw. I now have the Cock O' the North and so need to decide what to do with it (The Duke of Gloucester had to be returned for a refund as it was faulty (the motor abruptly stopped working after about 20 mins of use) and the first Cock O' the North had to be returned because it was damaged). All 3 performed similarly on my points. So my options would seem to be (a) to keep it and use it in the points free parts of my layout (b) to continue experimenting with weights and alternative bogie wheels or © to return it for a refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 As I said before have you checked the back to back? Without wishing to be rude, is your track especially the points nice and flat and the track joining the points nice and square? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony57 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I wonder if it is time to go back to a cast metal bogie rather than the plastic ones made today, going by the number of forum users comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrumDave Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Unlike the Pizza Cutter wheels that were used by Hornby for years the wheel profile on modern locomotives are much finer, that is the main reason for derailments over points, I built a layout using Hornby track and points for American HO scale trains, out of 17 locomotives only one cheap and nasty one would pass through the points without coming off, American wheel profiles are very fine with a narrow flange other manufacturers followed suit in order to make the wheels look more realistic, only way I could get them to stay on was by lenthening the checkrail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 The only things that ever derail on my layout are, for some reason, Dapol wagons. I have many up to date locos and have no trouble with points, they are however Peco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Even lightweight ones shouldn't derail. The bogies on my Arnold GG-1 are as light as a tenth of a feather, but they don't derail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt123x Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 As I said before have you checked the back to back? Without wishing to be rude, is your track especially the points nice and flat and the track joining the points nice and square? Thanks for the further suggestions. I have checked the back to back and have experimented with changing it slightly but it doesn't make much difference.The track seems OK to me but it's been ballasted so there's little I can do to adjust it. I suspect it isn't 100% perfect but is good enough for older, heavier, less sensitive bogies. The newer bogies are just too lightweight to handle any very slight imperfections. That's probably what's happening here I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrumDave Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 The only things that ever derail on my layout are, for some reason, Dapol wagons.I cant for the life of me understand why Dapol OO Gauge wagons derail but they do, I stopped buying them years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Must be something about the geometry of the wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 @Matt123x are you using Hornby Points, Peco set-track points or Peco Streamline points?I find my Hornby locos with pony trucks are fine on Hornby points and Peco Streamline points but derail on Peco set-track points whilst my Bachmann locos are fine on peco set_track and Peco streamline but derail on Hornby points! These days all my points are now Peco streamline to get round this problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 @BrumdaveI found the same with some of my Dapol wagons, the solution was to replace the wheels with Hornby wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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