Peter Ruifrok Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Looking for help......I will be using Kato track and points in connection with Railmaster and the eLink. Sofar I have only been running the track with Railmaster but I now also want to program the points. As "decoder" for the points I got a Noch 60264 for running 4 points. However, looking at its short manual I am wondering if this is indeed a decoder. It looks like a small print to connect each points with a Reed switch or a conventional push button switch. However, it also shows that it can be connected to (in German) "a digital impuls magnetartikel decoder". Thus I think, I need an additional decoder. But which one?I will also post this on the Railmaster forum, since I really do not know the best place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I found this, "Further, switching function can be achieved with reed contacts and digital switching (DCC) with an upstream solenoid accessory decoders." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernwill Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 The Digitrax DS64 will operate 4 points through RM. I am using these so know that they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Poliss, Peter has made this question somewhat confusing by asking it twice. Take a look at my answer in the RM forum where I suggested you would be along soon to confirm. Peter, much better to just ask once, the you might get the entire answer in the one place. Just because it might be a little unclear as to which forum might have been the best to ask in is no reason to put it in both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Ruifrok Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Sorry for the confusion, I didn't intend so. I will stay with the DCC forum.Westernwill: did you connect the Digitrax DS64 directly to the points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernwill Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Peter Yes just connected direct to the points and fed power from my bus. I have done this with both Kato N and HO points. They have been very reliable so far and are easy to set up.They come with very good instructions, the only slight quirk is that you have to set all 4 addresses at the same time. Not a problem, just something to be aware of. Of course you don't actually need the points attached in order to set the addresses, just need the points defined in RM.The DS64 is defined within the RM dropdown for accessory decoders.Hope this helps. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Ruifrok Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 I know this is unrelated to the decoder question, but I assume that for DCC use the settings of the point are such that current on the frog is "on" and that current flows to both directions of the point?And regarding the decoder to use, I appreciate that the Digitrax DS64 is proven, but would for instance a Kuehn WD10 work as well (I am aware that you haven't tested this, just curious about the principle and if Digitrax has something special for Kato Unitrack). The Kuehn is also in the Railmaster drop down menu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 @PeterAs it is only software and as RM lists it then presumably they must have tested it or at least read the instructions, so give it a try by selecting the Keuhn from the drop down and if it works (or doesn't) please report back the results seen for the benefit of others in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernwill Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Peter Bear in mind that Kato points with built-in motor use a bi-polar solenoid drive for operation.To switch the turnout digitally, you must choose a DCC turnout decoder that supports the bi-polar drive.electric points.Several of the Digitrax models support this, as does the Lenz 100.Regarding current flow, it depends on the points. On N gauge, only the #4 turnout supports non-power routing, it also has a metal frog and can be switched to live frog.Hope this helps Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 If you google DCC operation of Kato points, you'll find lots of info on whether they are best operated as power routing or not and live or dead frog. My memory is that the conclusion is you do everything non-powered, routing and frog, use insulated joiners on the frog rails, then power connections in all directions. Maybe Bryan and poliss might like to comment on whether I have it correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Ruifrok Posted March 27, 2016 Author Share Posted March 27, 2016 Okay, my experience of yesterday and today. For what it is worth.With respect to current and frogs: the setting on the rear of the points is such that the current flows in both directions (left and right, independant from how the point is switched) and there is current on the frogs. Works really good.With respect to the Kuehn WD10 and the Noch 60264. That does definitely not work. The WD10 does not work with this type of point motor (as Westernwill kindly pointed out). Putting the Noch 60264 in between does not help. In the mean time I understand that indeed the Digitrax DS64 (for 4 points) or the Digitrax DS51K1 (for 1 point) are proven options, certainly together with Railmaster. Other options proposed by others have been the MDD from Rosoft (8 points) and the 1-DEC-DC (4 points) from Littfinski. And of course the Lenz 100 mentioned above. However, I do not see the MDD or the 1-DEC-DC in the drop down list. The Lenz 100 is presumably the Lenz LS100 from the drop down list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernwill Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Peter, you seem to be steadily working out your options. As I mentioned earlier I use Kato track for both N and OO layouts and find it excellent quality. My N layout is DC at the moment although I use RM to operate the points. My OO layout is DCC run by RM/Elink setup, although I still have several locos to convert. I only have the #6 points on N which have no power routing options which for DC is fine.I first started using Kato as an easy to ley track around the Christmas Tree, we have laminate flooring, and found it so reliable that I started replacing my other track with it.The DS64 has been very reliable, not cheap and quite bulky compared to some others. I have no knowledge of other accessory decoders for Kato so cannot comment on them.Hope you get sorted out and enjoy playing with your trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Peter, the 20264 is a DC item, take it back. Given the Kato motor is a solenoid, it should work with any bi-polar decoder, although I would check N gauge compatability on the decoders' web site. And it doesn't matter if not currently listed in RM, just choose somthing similar, bipolar decoder with the same number of ports. Then report it to HRMS via the Help email in RM suggest they add it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Ruifrok Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Hi Fishmanoz, I find this approach somewhat risky. Would any compatible decoder (I mean fit for Kato points) run without trouble together with Railmaster as long as it is doing the same as a Digitrax DS64 or a Digitrax DS51K1 (this is the one point alternative). I mean, could I just choose the Digitrax from the drop down list but use a different brand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I'm not certain exactly what the Noch 60264 does. From the looks of the capacitor on it, it might be a CDU. It could be used along with an acessory decoder to control more points. I'd send a message to Noch on their contact page to find out exactly what it does. I didn't move any switches on my points. I just use them as they came out of the packet. No problems with short circuits on DCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 It's a DC switch for points poliss with reed switches, not DCC. There are also no swithces on Kato points but you can move screws to make the frog live or not and feed power to both tracks or not. Also, can you advise Peter whether there are any particular issues with accessory decoders on N gauge please? My logic says DCC is DCC so all compatible with each other. And Peter, yes use a Digitrax in RM as long as it has the same number of ports and same setting method (all at once or individually). No, it's not risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 The Noch page says it's for DC and DCC Fishy. The components appear to be a capacitor, diodes and resistors. It says it can also control reed switches. The diagram in the inadequate manual shows a connection to an accessory decoder.You can't make the frog live because they're plastic. The screw operated switch acts in the same way as the point clips on Hornby points do.DCC is DCC, but some things, like N Scale locos prefer a lower voltage. You need to check the instructions on the equipment used. Some controllers are able to have their voltage adjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernwill Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I use the Digitrax to control my N gauge points through RM,even though the track is DC, on a different circuit of course. I have had no problems yet, touch wood, owww, must remember not to hit my head too hard when I do that !As N scale is one of the settings within RM it should all work fine running everything, just the probem of trying to get decoders to fit inside smaller locos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 My mistake poliss, thanks, only saw DC when I looked it up. Why you might need something other than an accessory decoder, I'm not sure? Thanks for other clarifications too. When I googled these points, I found some types that have frog live or dead as well as power routing, all controlled by screw positions in the base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just looking again at Kato points on their site, the 718mm radius points seem to be metal frog, the 481mm plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Ruifrok Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 Kato has two types of points. I have the type in wich the frogs are metal and you can set them with one screw on or off. I have them on, because that would make the running of locs more reliable. From the factory the setting is on. In addition you can set with two screws if there is current on both ends leaving the point, or only on the direction in which the point has been set. I have current on both ends, but the factory supplies them with the setting current only in the direction of which the point has been set. Sorry if this sounds a bit complicated.On the other issue, forget the Noch. Not required. Definitely. I have ordered the DS64 and I expect this to work immediately. There is however a possibly cheaper alternative: the Kuehn WD10 with an additional Kuehn MA10 between the WD10 and the point. The WD10 is for 8 points, the MA10 for only 4, so you need two. I will try this option once the DS64 works. Watch this space -:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I was thinking that the Noch thingy could be used to fire four sets of points at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Looks like the MA10 may be CDUs to adapt the WD10 for solenoids. Why don't you check out the DCC Concepts ADS8 series for 8 points. There'll be no problem contacting them via their website to double-check they are OK for the Kato solenoids. PS. The compact Kato #4 points are plastic frog, the higher radius #6 are electrofrog with routing. It doesn't appear they can be made properly DCC friendly though, at least not without significant butchering, hence the recommendation from internet sources that they be run dead frog, non-routing, IRJs on the frog rails and power feeds in all directions, if I remember rightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 No room for No.6 on my layout. That'll be why I didn't know about the live frogs. Hardly enough room for No.4s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Ruifrok Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 Today the Digitrax DS64 arrived. Excellent instructions, size a bit larger than I had expected, but I had it installed straight from the box within 5 minutes! Works with Kato points and Railmaster like a treat. Recommended. I will contact DCC Concepts and I will try the Kuehn combination next. I'll keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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