Elite - Hornby Accessory decoder

[70s kid]

Am about to finally attempt wiring Peco surface point motor to my Hornby Elite controller via Hornby accessory decoder so here comes the silly question....

I've connected the acc. decoder to a programming track to power it. Once I've programmed it (I didn't have time last night) - I was hoping to wire the points from the decoder & operate them via the Elite that both the running track and programming tracks are connected to. Does the acc. decoder have to be connected directly to the running track? Apart from not being a fan of the clunky power clip, I have the programming track discretely located against the edge wall of my baseboard, effectively behind the Elite, largely out of sight (and with it, the power clip). I'm starting to doubt now however if the acc. decoder will operate the points via this configuration or if it has to be physically linked to the running track which I've ballasted - another reason for hoping my programming track might work?

Elite ~ programming track ~ power clip ~ accessory decoder ~ point motors is the setup I was hoping to use?

Daft question probably & apologies in advance for exasperated sighs.

[ff2nd]

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings. The Point Accessory Decoders can only work from Track power, so will not work from the programming port. However, if you have wired to your track underneath your layout, you can splice into that wiring and take the feed for the PAD off that....

[70s kid]

Many thanks - it's not as bad as I thought in that case as I dreaded the thought of undoing ballast and even worse - having a clunky programming clip that I was going to try and hide under a trackside hut or 'foliage'. I have track BUS wires under the baseboard that I'll just tap into. Great advice - I kinda suspected (feared) the programming track was too simple a solution to work but as I've said many times during the build, 'it's not the same without the pain'. Thanks a mill.

[96RAF]

Just to be clear 70skid

You have to connect the R8247 to the programming track initially to program it in Direct Mode unless you only have 4 points in which case I believe it is factory set to those 1 to 4.

 

If you have the older R8216 then this has to be 'pre-charged' by connecting it to the Track for a few seconds, then transferring it to the Programming Track to program this time in Reg Mode.

 

To use either version the input has to be connected to the Track, either at the track itself, via the track bus if you have one, or simply doubling up into the back of the Elite along with your Track wires.

 

The Programming Track has limited current to safegaurd against wiring errors, so could not fire a point in service.

 

[70s kid]

Thanks RAF - it's the newer 8247 and I have 7 points I will be trying to operate with point motors so I have 2x Acc decoders that I'll be programming using the programming track and once that's done, will splice into the track BUS to operate. 

Great advice - much appreciated 

[96RAF]

Be aware that when you program the second one it is to address 5 (allocating automatically addresses 5, 6, 7 & 8) but if you tried to read that back it would say address 2 as it reads back groups not individual addresses (Group 1 address 1 to 4, group 2 address 5 to 8, group 3 address 9 to 12, etc).

 

To know that the thing has accepted the addres during programming you can/should attach a point motor to any set of ports. Put the solenoid slide in the middle and when programming is done the solenoid will click one way to show succes (hence putting it in the middle to start with)

[70s kid]

Thanks RAF. I programmed both decoders on programming track and set the second to 02 for group two so im expecting to operate the first point on the second decoder as acc no. 5 etc. I'm still soldering extension wires to the motors and connected the first to test it and it works great. Mind you, the first point motor worked fine when I tested it but then decided it would only operate in one direction so I swopped it for another and that one works great both directions and is sited permanently now and has been a great help already saving me having to walk around the layout to the opposite side. Mrs wife was so impressed that she has said I should put motors on all points and not just on those between inner/outer tracks & sidings so have ordered a third decoder. 

Many thanks 

[96RAF]

@70skid

I would recheck that second one before you get to deep into the wiring up, as you should have given it Address 5, which reads back as Group 2 (i.e. points 5 - 8).

Rob

[70s kid]

Thanks Rob, unusually for me it worked fine with programming the second decoder as 02. I've a couple of motors that operate in one direction only so will try swooping to another 'port' on the decoder that's working a point in both directions to see if that gets it working both ways. If nit I've a dud motor and will return it. As I always say...it's not the same without the pain

[Chrissaf]

70's Kid

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I've a couple of motors that operate in one direction only

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Assuming underboard motors such as R8014 rather than surface mounted R8243s. Faulty R8014 solenoid point motors when brand new are very rare. They can be damaged by the user by not using a CDU and having power connected for too long and damaging the coils, but to have them faulty from the factory is very unlikely.

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There are usually only two reasons why a solenoid point motor only works in one direction. It is mis-wired or there is mis-alignment from poor R8014 under board fitting practices.

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I am discounting the mis-wiring option as you have got most of your points working, so presumably are wiring up the non functional points the same as the working ones.

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If the point motors are R8014 screwed to the point position under the baseboard, then I suspect that the motor alignment is out.

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It is easy to test whether the point motor coil is faulty (open circuit). With a mult-meter set to ohms check the resistance of the coil by measuring from the wires that connect to your DCC decoder (disconnect them from the decoder first). They should read about 4 to 10 ohms.

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If you don't have a multi-meter then remove the motor from the point so there is no physical operating resistance and fire the point from your controller in both directions. If that works, then the issue is almost certainly one of under board mounting alignment.

[70s kid]

Hi Chris, thanks for that. I was looking through a site (plate layer) that I think is one of the guys here on the forum - maybe yourself (?) and think that it's a simple mis-wiring. The first one I wired up was a peco and I wired the others the same way including Hornby surface motors which are wired differently per below. Peco surface mounted point motors (PL-11) use the Green wire as the common connection, while Hornby use the Black wire for the common

I'm hopeful when I correct this, they should work fine. Daft thing is, even when I was making the connections I knew I'd read somewhere that the peco/Hornby were wired differently but I slavishly followed the connections of the first one I did (peco) that worked fine. Sighs wearily, facing another crawling around on my back under the baseboard. 

Many thanks as ever

[Chrissaf]

Ahhh the Classic crossing the Green with the Black wire scenario. Yes you are right, I have written many posts on this forum on that topic. But have no connection to 'platelayers'.

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It is a natural assumption to make that once a layout builder chooses a particular brand, that they stick with it. Well you know what they say about "assume". If there had been any mention in your posts about using mixed solenoid brands the 'Green / Black' issue would have been at the forefront of my earlier replies. I incorrectly assumed that all your point solenoids were from the same manufacturer.

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And just for the benefit of other readers of this thread for whom the reference to the Green / Black issue is a complete mystery, let me explain.

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The standard colour scheme for solenoid point wiring used by Hornby and Peco is Red, Green and Black. Hornby and Peco however implement these three colours in different ways. Hornby use the Black wire as the common return and Peco use the Green wire as the common return. Therefore if you wire up a Hornby point to the Peco colour scheme or the Peco point to the Hornby colour scheme then you end up with the Green and Black wires being reversed wires. The result of which is that the point motor only fires in one direction only.

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When mis-wired this way, the current flows as follows during the two point firing actions:

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When fired in one direction the current flows through the Green solenoid coil and the point fires in the Green direction.

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When the point is fired in the other direction, the current flows (due to the mis-wiring) equally through both the Red AND the Green solenoid coils. Thus the magnetic pull of both coils being equally energised cancel each other out and the point motor doesn't move, giving the impression of a faulty solenoid.