The Hornby DCC system

[null_null981707818694]

Hi,

Altough I've been collecting trains for more than 40 years, DCC is a totaly new concept for me.

At the moment I'm planning a new track, it will be 40m long  divided in blok sections, with a loop on each end, and 8 track station and coal yard.

The idea I have is that the station acts as my play ground, where I can play with my trains DCC controled.

But once I send a train on the main line a full automated block system takes over, only curtaian junctions will be manualy controled.

That is the Idea, now turning it into reality is an other thing.

My choice went out to Hornby as all my rolling stock will be British and mostley produced by Hornby.

The Hornby DCC material I alreaddy have bought is an e-link, a select, two reverce loop mudule and a power booster.

Besides that all my rolling stock is fitted with a Hornby R8249 decoder.

Here are more or less the questions I have.

 

-The select was acctualy the first thing I had and already done a bit of experimenting with, it works graet, but it's to simple to control the hole thing.

But as I understand it, it isn't a total waste of money, as I still can use it as a walkabout together with the e-link correct?

 

-The reverse loop mudule:

As I understand it for every loop you build in, you need such a mudule, does not matter if you use a select, elite or e-link, correct?

An extra question I have about the reverse modul, there is a switch on the module that give you the choice select or elite, how do you put it if you use e-link?

 

-Power booster: Since it will be a track 40m long, I thought it would be a good idea that the tracks outside the station, would be fed with an extra power sorce.

As I understand the power booster module it takes over the comands comming from the controller, in my case the e-link, and ad's it's own power comming from it's own power supply, correct?

 

-Blok system: The biggest isue what I still am strugeling with is creating a blok system.

I want to stick as much as possible with one brand to avoid complications.

But It seem that Hornby does not have a appropriate answer to a block system what I want to create.

What I want is, that when a block is occupied by a train, that the signal that give entrace to that block, comes to a closed position (halt).

And trains coming into that previous section, should come to a gradual halt infront of that closed signal.

Once the section is cleared, the signal must go open and the train must resume it's jurney.

Does anyone have any expriance to let such a vision work, together with the hornby DCC material I have?

I've been recently to a big model fair in Germany, where brands as Lenz and Motorola are represented.

But they always say, we don't know the Hornby system, but we sell a full range bla bla bla....

Of course only pushing forwart their own products.

 

-E-link: I recently bought a Hornby e-link.

I haven't tryed it out yet, but as I understand it, the softwhere only work on a Microsoft windows type softwhere.

All my computers in the house run Apple with a OS X .

Is there a softhwhere alternative, without instaling Windows on my Mac, that is hornby compateble?

At the moment I have an old Windows laptop that will do the trick for now.

Does anyone know if Hornby is working on an OS X version to be released in the future?

Is it also  possible to use the softwhere on an samung android tablet or an Ipad?

 

Your answers would be very welcome.

I'm sorry for sometimes not useing the correct English, as my mother language is Dutch.

Cheers,

Danny

 

 

[Chrissaf]

as I still can use it as a walkabout together with the e-link correct?

.

Incorrect. The Select will only work with the Elite controller as a walkabout. It connects into the Elite 'Express net' socket. The eLink does not have this socket.

.

As I understand it for every loop you build in, you need such a module, does not matter if you use a select, elite or e-link, correct?

.

Partially correct. Yes you need an RLM for each loop. Yes it doesn't matter in principle what controller you use. The RLM is a completely autonomous product and completely unaware of the controller being used. There is however a small issue that needs to be considered, see response to second part of your question below.

.

there is a switch on the module that give you the choice select or elite, how do you put it if you use e-link?

.

You have to understand how a RLM works. A RLM is in essence a sophisticated 'short circuit controller'. It monitors the current being drawn through it and reverses the DCC phase when it starts to see a 'short circuit' current building up. As soon as the DCC phase is reversed, the source of the 'short circuit' is in essence removed and the current reduces back down to the ambient background level.

.

The RLM switches the DCC phase and reduces the drawn current FASTER than the short circuit protection within the controller itself. Thus the RLM functions before the controller trips out.

.

The issue is that as a current sensing device a high current threshold has to met before the RLM switches. The default power supplies provided by Hornby are 1 amp for a Select (including eLink) and 4 amp for the Elite. Thus the switch position is labelled as Select & Elite for the purpose of identifying the power supply current. Select for 1 amp and Elite for 4 amp. If you are using a 1 amp supply and have the RLM in the Elite position. The 1 amp power supply can not meet the switching current needed to trip the RLM.

.

However, that all said. There have been many reports on here that the Hornby RLM does not function reliably when used in association with the Hornby 1 amp supply, regardless of the Select / Elite switch position. Thus it is recommended that the Select & eLink power supplies are upgraded to the 4 amp version when using the Hornby RLM. You would then use the 'Elite' switch position on the Hornby RLM.

.

There is another consideration to take into account with your planned design. If all your tracks are effectively 'end to end' with loops at the ends. Then the point at the entry/exit position will need switching once the train has entered the loop to accommodate the train exit. Without Loco Detection (see response to later question) then you will have to manage all these point switching actions manually. In other words you can't just leave the train running round on its own unless you do it as a program within RM.

.

There is an alternative RLM product (not Hornby) that is designed for this very scenario. Not only does it perform the RLM function, but it automatically switches solenoid based points to completely automate this loop back function. The product that does this is the "DCC Concepts PSX-ARSC". You can read about this product on a previous thread https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/11943/?p=1

.

All the non Hornby RLM products I have seen including the PSX-ARSC above have stated that they are not recommended for use with low current 'entry level' power supplies. Thus, I would consider the Hornby P9300 4 amp power supply as being the minimum when implementing RLM technology.

.

Power Booster.

.

A more accurate term for a Power Booster would be a DCC Signal Repeater. Your described understanding of how it functions is in essence correct. However, with only 40 metres of track the need for a Booster is debatable. You would get exactly the same benefit by just upgrading the eLink 1 amp power supply to the 4 amp one, which you would probably need to do anyway because of the RLM requirements - see previous comments about RLM and currents.

.

Block Control System.

.

Unfortunately 'Block Control' is not supported with the Hornby products until such time as Hornby release their planned 'Locomotive Detection' system. This was first announced several years ago and still no nearer being released.

.

Search out posts on this forum made by user "Phul007" he lost patience waiting for Hornby LD to arrive and implemented a full system made by another company. It seems extremely successful if his post descriptions are anything to go by. Try the "Let's see your Layout" thread in the 'General Section" nearer the end of the thread than the beginning.

.

PC Operating System & Android / iPad.

.

The eLink controller is completely proprietary to Hornby's RM software. Some other brands of controller software will work with Elite but none have been successfully used with the eLink. The only reports of RM working on MACs is via Windows emulation? "Parallels" product (this info based purely on reports within this forum). AFAIK there are no known plans to natively support Apple Mac in the future.

.

The Android / iPad APPS work in conjunction with RM running on a full Windows PC. The mobile device communicates with the Master Windows PC running RM. The Android / iPad mobile devices are in essence a wireless walkabout controller that interacts with the Master RM PC. The Android / iPad APPS are not stand alone devices and do not have RM loaded on them.

.

I'm sorry for sometimes not using the correct English, as my mother language is Dutch.

.

Your written English is extremely good, better than some so called UK natives.

[2e0dtoeric]

Your English is a lot better than my Dutch!

I think you have the general idea. I presume you mean a single track of 40 Metres, with an 'O' on each end, so a train comes back along the same track as it went out. In that case you need the reversing modules, and also some insulated rail joiners. You need to make two breaks in the loop, with the reversing module connecting to the isolated section - which HAS to be longer than the longest train you inten to run.

If you mean a 'dog-bone' or a dumb-bell railway, where you have the two tracks running side by side, with a circle at each end, you do not need the reversing modules, as it is nothing more than a squashed - or pinched - oval.

When it comes to the block control system you ask about - it doesn't exist yet! Have a search through this site for 'loco detection', there is a lot about it, and it will appear eventually.

For a railwa that long, you really need to think of installing a BUS system. (Plenty about that on here, too, without repeating it all) Basically it is a heavy cable that runs the whole length of your railway, but underneath, with lighter wires - droppers - connecting each piece of track to the BUS, thus avoiding power loss through all the rail joiners.

E-link I cannot help you with, as I have never used it.

 

Chris beat me by a few seconds!  :-)

[Chrissaf]

Further to my original reply.

.

Eric is absolutely correct. A 'Dog Bone' topology does not require any RLM.

.

My definition of loop requiring a RLM is:

"A loop such that a loco arrives back at its original starting point (same piece of track) but facing in the other direction."

[96RAF]

Just to add to what Chris said about the RLM sensing And that Select/Elite switch.

 

The Select internal overload protection is set at 4 amps to allow use of the bigger power supply.

 

To provide protection when using the 1 amp supply this comes from the power supply itself, which upon seeing an overload merely reduces the supply voltage, which invariably causes the Select to reboot.

 

Your English by the way is better than mine and I am a native, albeit from Geordie-land, where at times they appear to speak double-dutch (sorry), especially after a few pints of Newcastle brown ale.

[null_null981707818694]

Hi,

Wow that is a lot of information to take in, and I thought DCC was easy plugin and go. 😳

Annyway thank you all very much for the quick and very usefull answers and tips, much apreciated.

It also pups up a few new questions.

I've drawn up a scetch of my layout.

It's not an accurate plane, it's scemeatic drawing so you can see where I want to go to.

As you can see the first points after each end form a loop, where I want thouse the reverse loop modules.

/media/tinymce_upload/06e5e9c7a69db6370faacec831789a54.jpg

If you think that one single power source of 4amp is enought to power 40m of track (40m in total long from loop to loop) than I could perhaps use the power source of the hornby power booster?

That is a 4amp P9300 transformer.

 

As for the DCC select, when a locomotive is given an adress will that address number the same on an E-link?

I'm thinking of still using it for a test bench.

 

As for the block system let's hope Hornby will make sutch a system availbe, because as for now they are running behind other brands.

I think I'm going for an analog solution where the power is cut off, I will be not as nice and greasefull as it would be DCC controled.

But It will be a quick switch once such a system will come availeble.

 

Same goes for apple softwhere, I can start with an old windows XP laptop I have here, it's cleand out, no acces to the internet and only the Hornby softwhere will run on it.

But I do hope that Hornby thinks of the Apple users in the future.

Cheers,

Danny

[Peter Ruifrok]

 Hi Danny, only few people in the Netherlands run eLink, me being one of them. I combine this with (obviously) Railmaster and have the standard 1Amp power supply which should be sufficient for running 8 trains at the same time at average speed. I run an N-gauge layout and the max I have done is 3 locs and a switch at exactly the same moment, and the switch did not influence the loc speeds. So it takes quite a layout before you need 4Amp. With respect to the RLM: I have a dog bone instead, but of course you may wish differently in your own lay-out. With a central station and a number of tracks and switches, somewhere somehow you may have a "hidden" reverse loop anyway, so the two RLMs may be a good idea. There are quite a few RLMs around such as the one mentioned above and they can be used in connection with your Hornby stuff. My loc decoders are all Kuehn (N45 and N025), Railmaster supports virtually all DCC decoders. I started with digital only some 5 months ago, so I consider myself a novice like you. I am happy to help if required. By the way, this forum is a great place for help.

[Peter Ruifrok]

 And by the way, you will never need more than the 4 Amp supply.Don't go any higher anyway, because a short may fry your track. Good connections from your power supply are indeed important, so go for the "bus" mentioned above. You  could make this from the wires which you buy for your home 220 V system in any Gamma or Karwei. Much thinner wires (e.g 0.19 mm2), which you solder to the outside of your track, connect the track then on many places with this "bus" underneath your layout. May I recommend the book ""Praktijkboek modelspoorwegen", part 1 (ontwerpen en bedienen) by Gerard Tombroek. This is in the opinion of many the best book on the subject in Dutch.

[Chrissaf]

If you think that one single power source of 4amp is enought to power 40m of track.

.

More than enough. Current has no bearing on distance. If you want to increase the distance an electrical signal travels, you increase the voltage of it not its current. The Hornby power supplies are fixed at 15 volts, so including a booster will not provide any additional voltage. By all means, in fact I recommend that you do, use the P9300 4 amp Power Supply from your Hornby Booster as the power supply for the eLink. This will make your RLMs more reliable too (see my full explanation in my previous reply).

.

As an analogy, 100 volts line transformers are used in Public Address audio systems. By modulating the low voltage audio onto a 100 volt line. The audio signal will travel 100s of metres.

.

The size of the power supply (current rating) defines how many devices you support concurrently, not the distance travelled.

.

As for the DCC select, when a locomotive is given an address will that address number the same on an E-link?

.

The Select can only address locomotives in the 1 to 59 address range. Thus if you want to use BOTH the Select (at the test bench) AND the eLink (on the layout) for operating the SAME locomotives. Then 'lowest common denominator' prevails. You would have to use the same 1 to 59 Locomotive address range on your eLink too.

.

As you can see the first points after each end form a loop, where I want thouse the reverse loop modules.

.

Your end loop topology and they way that you have placed the crossover points just before the end loop will make your RLM design more complicated. When the cross over points are in the 'straight ahead' position then the end loop topology forms an overall  'dog bone' or 'dumb bell' topology for the layout that does not require a RLM. When the cross over points are set for the cross over, then the RLM is required.

.

EDIT - After giving the your design some more thought. I have devised a RLM plan that will work. I will post it in a drawing form as a new reply. It will be subject to a moderation delay before appearing.

.

 

[Chrissaf]

Here is my RLM design I mentioned in an earlier reply. Obviously replicated at other end of layout as well.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/9b59e3c57135159c519bd2e3328abf92.jpg

 

[Fishmanoz]

Chris, why don't you simplify the insulated section by putting one pair of IRJs to the right of the points at the bottom of the loop to go with the single set at the top.  I can't see any reason to include the points?  Once the loop is isolated, no point setting causes a RL to occur.

[Chrissaf]

Your wrong Fishy, the crossover points do create a short. Finger trace the outside rail of the loop and you will see. The outside loop rail becomes the inside loop rail as your finger traverses the point crossover.

.

This is exactly the same as a diagonal link across a traditional oval. The pinching of the oval into a dog bone creates an optical illusion of a standard twin oval cross over. But this design is not a twin oval.  

[Chrissaf]

Just to clarify and remove any doubt here is my RLM plan in schematic form.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/81b959161ab26883da4702da6d2d8a3a.jpg

[Chrissaf]

EDIT to above drawing. I should of course have highlighted that the top schematic is the "How NOT to do it" option.

[Fishmanoz]

Chris, I agree that in the top diagram there is a short if you connect up a loop at the left hand end of the diagram you will have a short.  But don't you have the mirror image of this right hand end there with a second RL and isolated section?  If so, I still can't see a problem.

 

All you will end up with as far as I can visualise is a complex powered middle section where all the rails at the top of the diagram are one polarity and all at the bottom the other. It will only short out if you put a loop at each end, hence the need for an (simple) isolated section in each of those loops?

 

PS.  Apologies for slow reply, couldn't get past Bad Gateway on the iPad last night. 

[Chrissaf]

Ahhh, I see where you are coming from. As long as each end is an exact mirror image of the other. Then the points rail crossover at the far left end, cancels out the points rail crossover introduced at the far right end. Yes I concur with that, when you take into account the overall layout topology instead of looking at the ends in isolation.

.

To visualise what you are proposing, ignore the multiple passing loops, take my top schematic. Duplicate it. Flip the duplicated copy 180 degrees horizontally. Join the flipped copy to the left hand side of the original top schematic and you have a trapezoid topology track (that is not an oval if you ignore the end loops) that has from the top down, rails Red, Black, Red, Black. This central trapezoid forms a fixed phase powered core middle section of parallel tracks that are short free. 

.

The end loops isolated via IRJs and RLM protection, then handle the DCC phase reversals as a train traverses from one section to the next.

.

I was too focused on looking at the ends in isolation. Apologies for doubting you. You spotted something I missed.

.

PS - Poor choice of colour on my part. Red & Black infer polarity. As you know there is no polarity in DCC, only phase. I used the Red & Black colour to indicate rail electrical continuity. In other words all the Red rails are in contact with each other as are the Black.

[Fishmanoz]

No need for apologies Chris.  In more complicated layouts, RLs and there necessary isolated sections are not always obvious and usually not unique.  And once you look at the, one way, it is often difficult to then see alternatives.  One thing I've found with isolated sections is to look for the simplest, and it may not be the first one you think of.

[96RAF]

We could do with a reverse loop identifier app where you draw in your track as a single line, which the app would make into a two rail track and colour the rails per your basic choice of palette.

 

This scheme would then be analysed by the app and reverse loop 'errors' highlighted. Rail breaks could be inserted to gauge effect and better plan the final plan.

 

Outwith my skill set but well within the capabilities of modern youth I would think.