Router through another Router

[Yelrow]

greetings, here in rural france Fast Line internet is wishfull thinking , as is choice of supplier. My router is located next to desktop, and a 50 foot ethernet cable takes it up to the upstairs laptop, as the walls are too thick for wifi. Should i for example wish to use a tablet with my trains, currently thats a no go.. So, if i had a second router, in my train room, linked by aforesaid ethernet cable, would it find tablet/ laptop, as plug and play, or would i need hours of time trying to set it up, bearing in mind, patience is not my strong suit. john 

[poliss]

What about using your mains electricity as a Powerline networking adaptor?

Quote "If there are rooms in your home that can’t receive a good Wi-Fi signal, look for a kit with a ‘Wi-Fi extender’ option."

[Yelrow]

Hi, Yeah, in a normal house, you are right, of course. Here, we have single phase, 2 phase, 3 phase, downstairs through a fuse box next to a bank of Lightning Conductors, whilst upstairs, through a seperate fuse box, which goes via another fuse box, back to the kitchen. Its a nightmare. Ring mains are not allowed here. I did try when i first came, but to no avail. Hence the 50 foot cable. john

[poliss]

I'll have a look round.

[Yelrow]

thanks.  what i dont want is to endanger my french router or wifi, as my red headed lady wife, would be grumpy. john

[poliss]

"You can set up just about any router as a wireless access point. To do so, you need to connect the second router's LAN port to the primary router's LAN port. If your primary router's IP address is 192.168.2.1 and its netmask is 255.255.255.0, you could make the second router's IP 192.168.2.2 and use the same netmask."

 

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,3253,l=257032&a=257028&po=6,00.asp

 

Detailed instructions here.

http://www.labnol.org/software/add-router-to-wireless-network/19716/

[Augustus Caesar]

Powerline network adaptors have restrictions just like any other networking wireless tool so is not recommended at the outset. Have a look at this below, John and see what it says to you then come back...

 

Hi John

 

The solution to this on one part is not as easy as it sounds but on another is straight forward. Let me explain...

 

A second router on a single network will not work. You can't have two routers acting as routers per say... the first would seek a DNS Gateway to the outside world and the second would not allow it because it can't use that gateway so you have a block on the network. That's about the easiest way to sum that up.

So, two solutions…

1. Both would have to have the capability to act as a bridge to each other. You do this with the internal settings within said routers and really it is best practice if you can at least find two the same, similar or compatible routers. For instance, I have a Draytek 2820n (my main router) which replaced a Draytek 2800g. I have the latter still. You may see that they are similar just because of the make and model numbers... similar except the prior model is more complex in that the security is better although the 2800g is excellent anyway. These are both wireless and can connect as a bridge wirelessly or via cable. The problem here is that two routers are not always compatible when bridging and both obviously have to have the bridge mode anyway within its firmware and user interface to work.
2. The second solution is to turn one of the routers into a switch so it is NOT a router anymore (becoming a switch or a repeater that is best attached via cable rather than wireless but if the latter is preferred then it is an easy setup). Anyway, staying away from those complexities this enables the second router to be used as a wireless switch. Now some will say this is a waste of a router… well, you can’t use two routers normally one network anyway so it’s just going to sit in the drawer anyway.

 

If you can understand that text above, then you should have no problem setting this up. If not and need more info, then I will do my best to help as will others who know this sort of thing. There are other things you can do but if you have two routers anyway then at least try those first. Without knowing the routers involved, make and model, I can’t say how to do this exactly for your setup… but I am sure you’ll let us know…

 

I used to deal with this sort of thing regularly but still have a couple of queries every now and then pop up with connection issues in offices etc. so at least will be able to advise.

[96RAF]

I think what john is looking for is his telephone line to plug into his downstairs modem/router as normal to get internet into the house, then his 50m ethernet cable plugged is into that as normal and upstairs the other end of this cable is plugged into a second router used just as a hub.

 

subsequent pcs and or laptops can then be again ethernet wired to this hub.

 

as he has said wireless is not going to work through his walls nor is a set of plug in gubbins that transmits over the odd ball electric string he has for mains wiring. Besides those gadgets are noisy and security leaky according to Fishy.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

@Poliss

The link for the detailed instructions certainly help but the article is slightly out of date where cabling is concerned and only wireless router to router connection setup.

@John

I note you are using cable already to go upstairs and it may be Cat 5... this has been superceded twice. Cat 5e handles Gigabit (1000Mb/s) data streams as does the later Cat 6, which is better again. Cat 5 can only handle 100Mb/s.

If you are using two routers with at least one Gigabit port on each then replacing your cable (although not essential) and connecting to each of these ports will give better data streaming between the two routers. The data stream will drop to allow only what the cable dictates and not the network or hardware itself. Cat 6 is no more expensive than Cat 5 or 5e.

 

The link pointed to also only shows the way to connect WIRELESSLY but the author does say they have very good signalling throughout the property. Setting this up for yourself John will not improve the system you have in any way because your walls are thick as you say. Therefore an ethernet cable is the way to go or stay as per your current setup keeping in mind the possibility of upgrading the cable for the future. The wireless part should only be between the upstairs, second, router and the tablet you are using for the railway which is what you are looking for. Data streamed to the downstairs router via the second and cable will always be there as there is no wireless to cause dropouts.

[Augustus Caesar]

@RAF

A hub will work as you say but this is just an early type of switch which superceded it.

A hub had ports to extend a network as routers would invariably be attached to a modem at one point and networks needed hubs to evolve.

Then switches with greater speeds replaced hubs which in turn were built into routers and those are the extra sockets we see on the rear of said equipment. So we don't really use hubs now and switches are there for 'extenders' or 'repeaters' to a network run from one single router. My own network at home uses an eight port Netgear switch which looks after lots of different connections.

Apologies if you know this already but then again some may not so at least they can follow the thread knowing what we are talking about.. well, hopefully anyway! 😀

[Yelrow]

now then i was afraid most of this would go over my head, and i am 6 ft 2 . My router is SFR. FC30. I have  old routers but they may not be compatible. RAF, sorta got it right. Telephone connects in office to router, desk top hardwired to router. wifi for ipad and downstairs laptop no prob. Only way for internet upstairs is by 50 cable from router to laptop. By  heather using AOL.and me on google, when i go on, it does not throw her out. As it is, it works, but i thought, why not have another router up here, to make laptop wifi, and be able to use Ipad, the latter, being the main contention, as no way to connect ethernet. So, no wifi, upstairs.  Augustus, the last para of your last post, commencing The wireless part, is the nub of the query.   Can you tell me in words a 4 year old could understand, how to do it. Interference with my existing router/ wifi/ ipad, would have DIRE repercussions, for yours truly. john

[96RAF]

I'm trying to find john a noddy guide but my internet has dropped to a crawl and the pages wont load. I'm looking at pc world home networking guide but cant get past page to where the diagrams are.

[Yelrow]

AC, my 50 foot at great expense, ethernet cable, is 12 years old. If you have one in your toolbox( modern) for nominal cost, would that improve my present speed upstairs. john

[Yelrow]

RAF, thank you, please bear impending divorce in mind, should anything affect Heathers  IPAD. Daily Mail. john

[Yelrow]

Poliss, hi, many thanks, am looking at your suggested site with little hope of understanding, but a wireless access point upstairs, seems to be what i need, plus a spotty youth of 14, who understands how to configure it. john

[96RAF]

@john

i've just been looking on pc worlds site at network switches.

 

given your long cable is already limited to speed along with your internet connection their cheap 7 quid TPLink 5 port switch would do even though it is only 100 bit not giga bit speed.

 

the way it works is how i said. You plug your long wire into it upstairs and also up to 4 other things with ethernet cables. one of those 4 could be a wireless sender.

 

you can get these switches in giga bit speed and with many more ports but at many more pounds.

[Yelrow]

Ta, ever so, will look. john

[96RAF]

@john

when i said a wireless sender what i meant was a wireless access point. I.e you plug it in upstairs, plug a network cable into it and it sends wifi out into that area.

 

some of them can take their power over the ethernet cable if the switch supports that. Look for PoE.

[Augustus Caesar]

@yelrow

Hi John... at this point of the conversation I will go ahead and type up a set of instructions that will help you and maybe others with this issue on how to access the routers (you say you have a few) to see if they can help you rather than buy new. The guide will also help if you do need to buy new so the best of both worlds anyway.

Two questions... are any of the other routers capable of wireless communication? Is their standard wireless b, g or n. The latter probably not and if they are g rated (the model label should tell you) then they are fine to test.

I'll continue to type up the guide so bare with me and if others help in the meantime then great. At least it may still help or aid others in future. It may be something that will go on the Help Site too as it is a configuration a lot of households will have, router downstairs and layout upstairs for example.

Don't, at this time, worry about cable as the age of the equipment may dictate sticking with what you have. We'll look at that later if necessary. So what I am doing is guiding you through testing your current spare routers (with the knoweldge usable in future if you do need to purchase hardware) and then set it all up the way you describe. Keep watching...

[Augustus Caesar]

@yelrow…

Hi John... RAF has it right in more ways than one and maybe I overcomplicated it a little not knowing your prior knowledge. Here’s the steps for testing your own routers:

 

The FIRST priority here is to find the MAIN router’s configuration in terms of IP Address, Gateway and Subnet Mask. The wireless configuration is irrelevant at this point.

 

You’ll find the addresses by doing the following:

Open a DOS Prompt or Command Prompt (same thing and admin rights are not required) then type the following without the quotes and then press Enter: “ipconfig”

You will see something like the following on screen amongst other pieces of information which are not important at this stage:

IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.10

Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0

Default Gateway . . . . . . . .  : 192.168.1.1 (this is the router's gateway address to the outside world and your login IP Address to the router itself).

 

Explanation of those numbers:

 

The IPv4 number alludes to your PC IP address and may look slightly different to your own.

The Subnet Mask is conducive to the IPv4 number above and is calculated automatically when that number is entered on modern routers… so nothing to worry about just now.

The Default Gateway is the IP Address for the router to get you to the outside world and the web. This number is also the number which brings up your router interface or login screen through a browser. This number can be changed but it is only recommended to do so IF you know what you are doing. Otherwise leave well alone. This number dictates the rest of the network IP Addresses in the home or business network environment.

Regarding the above paragraph, it is fair to say that BT do tend to overcomplicate matters with their routers by having the gateway set to 192.168.1.254 and this is ONE scenario where you should change this as soon as possible to 192.168.1.1 given a new network setup… otherwise leave as is in case you upset configurations already in place.

 

Other gateway addresses you may have or see are:

192.168.0.1

10.0.0.1

192.168.1.254 (as in the BT example above)

Whichever you come across this is the Gateway IP Address you will use here for the gateway too. If you have an address different to the 192.168.1.1 I will use in the examples just replace it with the one you have… so 192.168.1.1 could become, in your case, 10.0.0.1 or 192.168.0.1.

OK… so we now know the gateway. This is very important so make a note of it. We’ll use the usual default of 192.168.1.1 in this example.

 

Connect the second router to a PC or laptop via an Ethernet cable (web connection is NOT required so the cable already attached (if so) can be temporarily removed) so we can open up and access the router interface. Do this as before by typing one of the following IP Addresses into the address bar of a browser:

192.168.0.1 or 192.168.1.1 or 10.0.0.1 and pressing enter.

One of those SHOULD work for each router you test. Note, the IP Address here for the second router will be the same as or different to the gateway address from the first router. Once inside the settings after logging in with the username and password (again different to the first router usually) you should be looking for a setting that will allow you to, usually via a tick box, change the router to that of a ‘switch’ or ‘repeater’. Once checked or ticked then save the settings and restart the router. The router will be a router no more until this setting is reset at a later time. If the router shows no sign of these settings for switch or repeater, then discard that from the test and try another.

 

Once found then make the change and reboot the router. It will now be able to communicate with the first router at any time. However, there are still one or two things to be done here. Re-enter the interface the same way as earlier.

The second router IP Address should now be changed, if necessary, to the NEXT logical IP Address to that of the FIRST and main router. So, as said, our main router is addressed as such: 192.168.1.1 then the second router address should be changed internally to 192.168.1.2. From that ANY device that is within the network should NOT be allocated, fixed or not, the address you have just allocated to the second router.

 

Within the settings for the second router you should find and disable NAT and also DHCP. The latter allocates IP Addresses to each piece of hardware on your network so this should ONLY be handled by the main router at all times.

Whilst within the second router interface you could setup the wireless settings you have for your device (tablet) such as the wireless network name (SSID) and passphrase to match those in the main router I assume are already set judging from your previous posts.

 

Once all that is done you should be able to communicate comfortably with the network and the outside world with the cable running upstairs from the main router and connected to the second router. From there wireless should connect to the second and any outside connection is then sent via the Ethernet cable to the router downstairs.

 

Just make sure you do NOT connect Ethernet cables via the WAN ports and only those labelled LAN… these stand for Wide Area Network (the outside world) and Local Area Network (your local household network). WAN is usually set to use RJ11 fittings while LAN or Ethernet are RJ45 fittings.

 

See where that takes you and get back to us if any other problems come to light.