Wobblinwheel Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 I've just installed the Sapphire decoder into my newest A4, but I have (another) question: One of the features that attracted me to this decoder was it's "shunting mode" feature which basically drops all speed and momentum settings to 50% for "shunting" purposes. I've been using three different brands of decoders with "shunting mode" feature: Digitrax, Loksound (ESU), and TCS. Each of these decoders, once shunting is activated (in whatever CV), the mode can be rapidly turned on-and-off via a Function key: F6 for Digitrax and TCS, and F11 on Loksound. On the Sapphire, CV 112, set to "1", engages shunt mode, which immediately drops speed to 50%, but I see NO MENTION of a fuction with which to turn it on and off! I can't possibly see the benefit of a 'shunting mode' if you have to go thru the steps of re-programming a CV to use it! Does anybody know if there's a funtion key associated with 'shunt mode' on a Sapphire decoder?? The only (very few) functions mentioned in the so-called "instruction leaflet" are around three for different lighting controls. Surely you can toggle 'shunting' on-and-off with this expensive little "jewel".....can't you?? The reason I ask is function-key control of 'shunt mode' acts as a good "brake" when you want to quickly slow-down a loco more gradually than the 'emergency stop' button when you have long decelleration settings, and you need to SLOW DOWN....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 WW - I don't know the answer to your question re the Sapphire decoder, but I do have some locos with TCS decoders and was unaware that they supported a 'shunting mode', which sounds interesting. How do you enable shunting mode on on a TCS decoder? What CVs do you have to set to make it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 How do you enable shunting mode on on a TCS.WW stated "Function F6 for Digitrax and TCS" if it is anything like my Loksound shunting mode. You don't need to alter any CVs. Just send a F6 function command from your controller. The easiest way to see if that works is to set your loco running at a brisk pace (higher than 50% of max speed). Send the F6 command (according to WWs post). If all is well, you should see a noticable reduction in the loco speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 @chrissaf.I just assumed you'd need to configure it, never even considered that it might be pre-configured...I'll give F6 a try as soon as I get a minute to 'play trains' and report back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 It is clear that CV112 is Shunting Mode for a Sapphire. What I tried to answer for myself is can CV112 be mapped to a function, any function, so that you can get immediate access to it without writing the CV, and I've failed to find that to my satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Please don't quote me on this, but on Digitrax decoders it seems CV 56 (or 57?) enables shunting mode by setting it from "0" to "1". The enables F6 to reduce power, and the effects of momentum, by 50%. On TCS there's a CV that turns F6 to an operating "brake" instead of "shunt". I can't remember that one, but when you press F6, the loco comes to a pre-programmed, gradual (if set that way) stop without altering speed-step setting. Pressing F6 again, loco gradually speeds back up to speed. This decoder also has "keep-alive", and costs about the same as the Sapphire. KAT-12, I think it was. On the TCS, setting up shunt as "brake" is perfect for shunting because after setting your speed, you only change direction and press F6 to maneuver the engine, all gradual. Not being able to toggle "shunting" with a function makes that feature pretty much useless on the Sapphire. It only alters the speed and NOT the momentum, so it is useless for shunting anyway. Buyers beware.....I was intrigued by the "automatic running" feature, but not so much anymore..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 @Wobbly My first assumption is that you are using a Hornby Elite controller, if not all bets are off and you can ignore what follows, but it may still be of interest to other Elite/Sapphire users. Stick a request into the Wishlist area asking for a shortcut selection to be able to toggle Shunting Mode on the main road when using the Sapphire decoder. There is a similar method already in use for the Sapphire fuel simulator in that once it is set up to go, as and when the fuel (coal/water/oil) runs out and the loco stops and flashes its lights for attention, you can hit the Elite ON/OFF button to instantly refuel it using Ops Mode directly, without having to go through all the Elite button press and knob twiddle thing. In effect this writes a new value to a CV which has been decrementing based on loco speed and load. Could such a shortcut method be used to similarly toggle Shunt mode. It would take a bit of reprogramming of the Elite I should think to provide the user interface selection, but all its doing is writing value 0 or 1 to CV112 on the main which is supported by the Sapphire. Looking at the manual for the Sapphire some function mapping is possible, but only for the CVs directly associated with what works upon selection of F0, F1, F2, not with any other Function buttons or any CVs in and around the 112 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 It is clear that CV112 is Shunting Mode for a Sapphire. What I tried to answer for myself is can CV112 be mapped to a function, any function, so that you can get immediate access to it without writing the CV, and I've failed to find that to my satisfaction.What is interesting is that after setting CV112 to "1" (shunt), only the running speed at higher throttle settings is reduced. Very slow speeds are affected very little, and your momentum settings remain the SAME! Technically, not a "shunting mode" at all. You don't want momentum while switching cars! At higher speeds, it would've been usefull to act as a means to more rapidly slow down a train, but ONLY if it can be function-activated. Seriously NOT a useful feature at at all! Not worth the money, but it was a learning experience. Education can be expensive..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 @chrissaf.I just assumed you'd need to configure it, never even considered that it might be pre-configured...I'll give F6 a try as soon as I get a minute to 'play trains' and report back...According to my TCS manual, "adding a value of 8 to the existing setting" of CV61 enables F6 to act as a brake. CV126 adjusts the braking momentum 0-255. This is a "press on, press off" brake WITH momentum which is exceptional for shunting and immediately slowing or stopping a train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 @wobblyWhat is interesting is that after setting CV112 to "1" (shunt), only the running speed at higher throttle settings is reduced. Very slow speeds are affected very little, and your momentum settings remain the SAME! Technically, not a "shunting mode" at all. Is this not what should happen when you select shunting mode - the top half of the speed curve is chopped off and the remaining lower curve is spread over 128 speed steps to give finer control. No doubt momentum if set if CVs 3 & 4 would be more pronounced as it would be the same 'delay' across a smaller throttle band.e.g if set to take 20 seconds to go from 0-50MPH and you select shunting mode which say limits speed to 25MPH then it will still take 20 seconds to go 0-25, hence reaction to throttle will be that much poorer. My thoughts are that if momentum is set then it should remain proportional in delay no matter what part of the speed curve is in play. i.e. if set as above then delay from 0-25MPH would be 10 seconds not 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 WW - Thanks for that. As soon as I get a spare minute (work is getting in the way at the moment), I shall try changing CV61 and CV126 on my TCS decorder fitted locos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 18, 2016 Author Share Posted May 18, 2016 @wobblyWhat is interesting is that after setting CV112 to "1" (shunt), only the running speed at higher throttle settings is reduced. Very slow speeds are affected very little, and your momentum settings remain the SAME! Technically, not a "shunting mode" at all. Is this not what should happen when you select shunting mode - the top half of the speed curve is chopped off and the remaining lower curve is spread over 128 speed steps to give finer control. No doubt momentum if set if CVs 3 & 4 would be more pronounced as it would be the same 'delay' across a smaller throttle band.e.g if set to take 20 seconds to go from 0-50MPH and you select shunting mode which say limits speed to 25MPH then it will still take 20 seconds to go 0-25, hence reaction to throttle will be that much poorer. My thoughts are that if momentum is set then it should remain proportional in delay no matter what part of the speed curve is in play. i.e. if set as above then delay from 0-25MPH would be 10 seconds not 20.On every other decoder I've used in shunting mode, the momentum is almost nonexistent, as it should be to have proper control when coupling and uncoupling, especially over a magnetic uncoupler. Momentum is a no-no when switching cars! Momentum actually seems exaggerated in shunting mode on the Sapphire, meaning WORSE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 WW - Thanks for the info. I updated the CVs on the TCS decoders in 3 of my Tank engines last night and updated their profiles in RailMaster to add F6. It took me a few minutes to remember you need to add on/off to the function name to make the function latching, so now I have a 'Brake' function which slows them down somewhat quicker than my standard momnetum setting does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 WW - Thanks for the info. I updated the CVs on the TCS decoders in 3 of my Tank engines last night and updated their profiles in RailMaster to add F6. It took me a few minutes to remember you need to add on/off to the function name to make the function latching, so now I have a 'Brake' function which slows them down somewhat quicker than my standard momnetum setting doesRemember, you should be able to adjust braking momentum independently, if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 WW - Yes I've done that, I've set CV126 to 5 whilst CV3 is set to between 10 & 20 depending on the loco. So now the F6 brake stops the loco much quicker than setting the speed step to zero. It's really nice to have lots of momentum under normal circumstances with the ability to do a much quicker stop when needed! Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 In my previous post where i said CV3, I of course meant CV4 (deceleration) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 I like to use F6 a LOT. I think it gives much more control over the loco. Speed-up, slow down, stop. All with one button! 😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81F Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Has anyone tried a saphire in shunting mode in the standard Hornby 0-4-0, I wonder if this could solve the problem with these little fellers zooming off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Squeezing a Sapphire into one may be the initial problem and mostly you have to hard wire a decoder in due to lack of space for a socket in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81F Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Squeezing a Sapphire into one may be the initial problem and mostly you have to hard wire a decoder in due to lack of space for a socket in any case.Thanks RAF96 Hard wiring would not be too difficult for these but I hadn't realised saphires were much bigger than other chips - I might try sourcing one of th others with a shunting function. Am I right in thinking the sapphires are essentially 21 pin decoderrs with an 8 pin connector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Correct on the 21 pins 81F. The 8 pin adapter harness is removable thus allowing a direct plug into a 21 pin socket equipped loco. I have just had one of my 0-4-0s apart and I had added a socket so it was a simple job to swap out the R8249 for a Sapphire. /media/tinymce_upload/b3cec3066ddb35be535e6cbd44e4555b.JPGYes enabling CV112 does knock the speed down considerably - probably by half. I had it running using RM's (100MPH) Cruise button in shunt mode and it was quite sedate really. Using RMs Shunt button (25 MPH) was nice and slow. The Sapphire also offers CV150 motor algorythm adjustment same as TTS decoders. Control was smooth right down to barely moving, except over points, which is normal on my board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 @81FYes it does (about 1/2 speed) and yes it has (21/8 pin removable harness) - further post coming with a picture of my socket equipped 0-4-0, so it is held moderation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share Posted May 22, 2016 Get a Digitrax DN136PS decoder. Has a half-speed switchable shunt mode (F6). VERY SMALL (half the size of Sapphire)...almost. Half the price of Sapphire.....almost. Probably around £13.00. Also DN136 can be gotten without plug......even cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 What is"motor algorithm"? My phone spelled it that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Think preset custom speed curves Wobbly. The decoder has two built in with CV150 set to 0 or 1 to determine which is used. There are 2 further CVs that can be adjusted for each curve to tweak it further. And your phone spells better than RAF, even in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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