Newbie sends track up in smoke !

[pando]

Hello Forum,

Firstly, I'm a 51 yr old newbie, and starting off with Hornby DCC. I did have a massive H0 Lima train set when I was a kid (lived in Italy).. I think it was much cheaper than nowadays.. we used to get stuff from across the border in Giant Swiss Supermarkets. Those were the days!!

Anyway now the good old days are returning, thanks to Hornby, but silly me ; I was attempting to connect a select with an elite controller, using a 

LINDY 6 Way RJ-12 Cable 2m from Amazon (possibly the wrong cable I've no idea)... anyway the Select had HC on it but not much progress was made pressing various buttons... anyway next thing I know my Richard II King class TTS is sat on the track like a duck and there must have been some sort of overload because one of the point clips was glowing red hot and smoke was coming out... plus a horrid burning smell... of course I disconnected everything... let my heartbeat, track and controllers cool down... swapped out the offending point with a straight, and luckily discovered my Elite was working (it wouldn't come on at first... which makes me think it cuts out for 3 minutes or so after an overload).. Select is working and Richard II is alive and kicking.... phew! I think I had a close call but it's not the first time an OL (overload) takes place ; I've laid a modest double circuit out on the reverse of paper mats that come with the train sets.

Well any advice is welcome. I don't know if the hobby will take off or not, but I seem to be caught up in it (buying stuff mostly). Thanks for reading and much happiness to all modellers. ciao, Roland

What went wrong ? are the 2 events (connecting the controllers and point going up in smoke) related or not?

 

[Chrissaf]

The point clips glowing red and melting points is a known issue and previously reported on the forum. Chances are that in your case, it is a coincidence.

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You didn't give many connectivity details, but if you positioned the track power connector in a position where the power to the rest of the layout is dependent upon one point power clip. Then all the current being drawn by the layout is passing through that clip.

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Now to the clip itself, it only needs to have the smallest amount of dirt on the rails or be a relatively loose fit at the point of clip contact for an electrical resistance to be created. Passing a current through a resistance creates heat. Heat increases resistance, more resistance generates more heat. A vicious circle.

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In an ideal world I would use an under-board DCC Bus wires with dropper wires soldered to the outside of the rails at strategic locations rather than point clips. I note however, that from your description you infer that by using a TrakMat that you may be using a table top layout. If that is the case, under-board DCC Bus wiring would not be practicable, particularly if the intention is to pack everything away at the end of a play session. In that circumstance, I would suggest using R8201 link wire kits to distribute power around the layout, thereby negating the need for point clips.

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Have a look at my 'Getting Started with Track Extension Packs" document (download link in locked thread of same name at the very top of this forum section or just click the link above). It describes the R8201 link wire kit and its use, plus much more information regarding both DC and DCC power connectivity.

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Now to your other question (not sure if it is a question or just a statement) regarding connecting the Select to the Elite as a Walkabout. The correct cable to use is a R8266 (currently shown out of stock in Hornby Shop), but readily available as non Hornby parts on ebay - search R8266. I wouldn't like to say whether your Lindy cable is a suitable replacement. If it is a flat cable, rather than a round one, then it may not be. A long story, not worth duplicating here (search forum for R8266) but the round cable type is recommended and the flat cable type should be avoided.

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Just be aware of the limitations using the Select as a Walkabout:

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1. The Select gets its power from the Elite via the R8266 cable. Do NOT connect the Select to its 1 amp power supply whilst connected to the Elite.
2. Only the Elite is connected to the track. The Select in Walkabout mode MUST only connect to the Elite via the R8266 cable. It must NOT also be connected to the track.
3. The Select can only support locos with DCC Addresses in the 01 to 59 range. When connected to an Elite as a Walkabout, you should restrict the addresses used on your Elite to the range (01 to 59) supported by the Select. Lowest common denominator rules apply.

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anyway the Select had HC on it but not much progress was made pressing various buttons.

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Excuse my ignorance, but what does HC stand for.

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As usual my post is a long one. May I humbly suggest that you do not click the 'Blue' Button with the Arrow in it if trying to reply. This button is NOT a 'Reply to this Post' button. Instead scroll down and use the large empty reply text box and use the 'Green Reply' button.

 

 

[walkingthedog]

Chris do you not think that point clips should be withdrawn. I know there hasn't  been hundreds of cases of glowing clips, well not reported on here, but surely they are a fire risk.  I know you're not supposed to leave a layout whilst it is running but it does happen, quick trip to the loo or to the kitchen to fetch a cuppa. 

[Chrissaf]

The problem is with Hornby, a distinct lack of desire to upgrade the design of their track components. In conjunction with their 'its a toy' mentality (everything needs to be push fit, clipped together and NO soldering allowed). Other brands treat the products as models for adults. For example, Peco point instructions include point modification instructions (optional) that can involve soldering.

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One would like to think that Hornby would take into account, even the small number of overheating reports made here on the forum and action them to rethink their product strategy. It would only need one tragic event of a glowing red clip turning into a full blown fire and loss of life for Hornby to be left wide open to legal action in the courts.

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Just an observation on my part, but in other non railway product areas there are numerous examples of manufacturers issuing product recalls for 'fire risk' related reasons. Usually, at significant replacement costs to themselves. 

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I ummed and erred regarding posting the above comment in reply to your post WTD, as I am sure such a comment will have people up in arms with contradictory views. So for readers reading this, its just my personal opinion.

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[Howbi]

@Chrissaf........I agree with your comments, we are all entitled to report our observations on a particular topic even if controversial to some.........in my experience point clips were very useful in creating an end to end layout with 4 & 5 parallel tracks all joined by several crossovers but the single power clip was centrally positioned so the supply had several routes & point clips to carry it throughout the layout so no one point clip carried the whole load.........even with several locos running there was no discernable heat emanating from any point clip......but for a permanent roundy layout I would solder droppers and not use point clips..........BTY the HC on the Select LCD means - Hand Controller......... 😀..........HB

[Chrissaf]

BTY the HC on the Select LCD means - Hand Controller.

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Learn something new everyday........

[Nick_]

It would be useful to see a diagram of the track and location of the power connector(s) and the polarities of the power connectors if there are more than one.

The thing is though there should be very little current flowing through the point clips unless something has been wired up incorrectly. With no locos or rolling stock on the track the current should be zero. With a few stationary locos the current should be a few milli-amps at worst. To get enough current flowing through a point clip to cause it to glow red indicates a short circuit somewhere with the point clip acting as the current limiter to stop the controller cutting out. (The resistance of the point clip will tend to increase as it gets hotter, so limiting the current).

[2e0dtoeric]

It would be an interesting exercise for someone with the appropriate safety gear - and a variable ampereage power supply.

Connect an expendable point clip across the output (on a flying lead!) and slowly wind up the current, to see just how many amps it takes to turn one into an electric fire.

Do NOT try this on your dining-room table, or anything else flammable!

[96RAF]

@nick

I follow and agree your logic about the point clips bearing little current until presented with a fault situation but we should not assume that these pesky devices are in any way a safety device that will fuse when the occasion arises, in fact the opposite is true, they become a hazard.

 

General question about live frog points - if they are designed as such why do they need to be modified by cutting links and soldering in wires. Can they not be made to suit DCC out of the box or even have a slide switch as I believe I have seen on some N gauge continental or was it USA points.

Rob

[walkingthedog]

If they suited DCC out of the box would they suit DC?

[96RAF]

If they suited DCC out of the box would they suit DC?

Hence the switch suggestion WTD

[2e0dtoeric]

As I see it - a manual switch is liable to be left in the 'wrong' position, followed by smoke! By using the Gaugemaster or other electronic switch, there can be no error, as it self-selects the correct polarity. (A bit like a reverse loop module). It just needs the irj's at the ends of the frog.

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I noted someone asking if they could be used with Hornby points - I'd like to see someone trying to solder the 'centre' connection of the module to the plastic frog!  :-)

[81F]

@nick

I follow and agree your logic about the point clips bearing little current until presented with a fault situation but we should not assume that these pesky devices are in any way a safety device that will fuse when the occasion arises, in fact the opposite is true, they become a hazard.

 

General question about live frog points - if they are designed as such why do they need to be modified by cutting links and soldering in wires. Can they not be made to suit DCC out of the box or even have a slide switch as I believe I have seen on some N gauge continental or was it USA points.

Rob

From memory the modifications suggested by PECO anable the point blades to be energized (or not) by using their accessory switch fitted to their point motor. Having said that I have a few live frogs on my layout and have not done any modifications and the work fine - usually.

 

I say usually because I have some stock where I cannot getthe back to back spot on and sometimes the back of their wheels touches the the open point blade and things stop.

 

Using unmodified electrofrond is quite simple, just make sure the current enters the toe of the point. This is easily acheived by using insulated rail joiners on the two rails comming from the frog and wiring the bus just beyond them. Interestingly this can also prevent derailments on some locos because when the first current collecting wheel crosses the insulated rail joiner (when the point is set against the loco) the emergency cutout stops everything (Hopefully this is safe - please someone tell me if it isn').

 

Regards

 

Steve

[walkingthedog]

If they suited DCC out of the box would they suit DC?

Hence the switch suggestion WTD

OK I get the picture. Personally I'd rather they were wired for either DCC or DC. I would be quite happy to have to alter them one way or the other. Not too keen on the switch idea, something else to go wrong or overheat, especially, if as I believe you're suggesting, the switch is built somehow into the point. 

Just about all of my points are live frog, apart from one or two in the sidings, and I have never had any problem with shorting so I must be doing something right. 

[pando]

Chrissaf, thanks for your extensive reply ; I've had to wait a day to write this reply, since I am only allowed 3 posts a day. Anyway, here's a few more thoughts to follow up.

My RJ12 cable was flat ; hence the wrong type I'm sure (even with HC displayed on the Select)

DCC Bus wires would be out of my depth right, right now, but when / if I do lay it on a board, I'm sure I'll go all the way!

Thanks for your warning about correct wiring of the Select ; I was aware of the points you made (only connect Elite to Track) fortunately. The only thing I have wondered, is can I have the track wires connected to the track post AND the programming wires connected to a piece of track at the same time ? or, does that drain power from the Elite ?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my original post. I'm not so enthused about point clips any more...  though still using that technique for the moment. Anyway my Supper is ready, apparently...

Speak soon, ciao, Roland

[Chrissaf]

Roland, just a few points of clarification for you to consider regarding programming tracks.

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Hornby Select and Hornby Elite handle 'programming' tracks in two different ways. I will cover the Select option just for completeness of information, but in reality I would expect you to do your loco programming via the Elite.

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In both cases below, the programming track must be completely electrically isolated from the main track. In other words, there can be no electrical connection between the Programming and Track outputs on the Elite and the Select should use a completely separate programming track piece and not the main track when programming the loco decoders.

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ALSO with regard to programming Hornby R8247 Accessory Decoders. These must be disconnected from the main track and directly connected to the program output of the controller when programming them. Many other NON Hornby Accessory Decoder brands are what is termed 'Self Learning' and these ARE programmed whilst still connected to the main track output. Currently, Hornby have no 'Self Learning' DCC products in their portfolio.

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Select.

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The Select does not have a separate programming track output. Therefore when you want to program a loco decoder using the Select, you need to remove the layout track connection from the Select and replace it with a connection to a short length of programming track. The Select manual suggests doing this via a switch arrangement, but frankly it is just easier to disconnect the layout track and connect the programming track piece in its place when you want to undertake a programming activity. This does have one advantage, because there is no separate program track output on the Select, this means that you can test your programming changes straight away whilst the loco is still sitting on the programming track piece.

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Elite

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The Elite has a separate 'Programming Track' output on the rear of the Elite. This output is current limited to give a very low power capability. The separate programming track output on the Elite can remain connected to the dedicated programming track piece on a permanent basis, even when running trains on the main layout. It has no drain on the power going to the main track. Internally within the Elite the programming and track outputs are isolated (I believe via relay contacts - the clicking you can hear during the programming activity in progress are the relays operating and releasing).

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TIP.....although it shouldn't in theory be necessary to do so. If you get the situation where you get CV reading errors (reading returns ALL 255 values) or writing errors (less likely). Then disconnecting the main 'Track A&B' output on the rear of the Elite so that ONLY the programming track is connected, can sometimes provide a 'workaround' fix for this issue. I have noticed this problem in my own case when trying to read Loksound V4 decoders.

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FLAT CABLE RJ12

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The flat Lindy cable has the individual wires within the cable laid in parallel. This leaves the cable prone to picking up electromagnetically induced interference. Hornby found this to be an issue and replaced their original flat cable with the round R8266 Walkabout cable. This cable is round because the wires inside the cable are formed into twisted pairs. Twisted pairs provide better rejection of induced interference. Your 2 metre Lindy cable may work, it may not. If you have any instances of loosing control of your locos when using the Walkabout Select or commands being lost or corrupted, then that would be an indicator that you need to replace the Lindy cable with a twisted pair R8266 version. At only 2 metres, you may not experience a problem, but forewarned is forearmed.

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best wishes....

Chris

[Fishmanoz]

Going back to the earlier comments on electrofrog and DC-DCC suitability.  First it is Kato points, their larger ones, that are switchable, may be others for all I know, but certainly Kato. 

 

Would making the the modifications to a point for frog switching make it unsuitable for DC - certainly not, it will still be suitable for both.  If you google DCC friendly points, you'll see how they work and what they achieve (DCCWiki and other sites have neat little colour coded diagrams showing you how they work).  What is achieved is that a large area around the frog has its polarity switched when the point is switched, thus eliminating all possibility of wheels shorting between adjacent tracks with opposite polarity (between phases to be perfectly correct in DCC) while crossing the frog.  Such momentary shorts are not a big issue in DC but in DCC, even a short short can lead to large transients that do damage.  That's one of the reasons for terminators to suppress those transients in DCC but better to make sure it doesn't occur in the first place.

[pando]

Please be patient : I'm still not clear about points in DCCI have both Peco and Hornby Insulfrog points and they are definitely stopping at least 1 loco on medium slow speed : I am disappointed in Hornby point design for DCC, but I can't put my finger on why, since I'm a beginner to Model Trains. The wiring for electrofrog points seems too complicated ; so I have stuck with the Insulfrog design.

Is there any 3rd party solution (00 scale please) ?

What do folks here recommend I do for my points ? Stick with Insulfrog for now ?

In general, can points be made to work reliably and consistently ?

Thanks in advance to all Forum members who reply !! Ciao, Roland

[2e0dtoeric]

You say that one loco is stopping when it crosses insulfrog points at low speed, but you don't say which type of loco. I'm guessing it is an 0-6-0 or smaller, shunting type.

This is a common problem, and is caused by (usually) lack of pick-ups on the wheels, so that as the wheel with the working pick-up goes onto the plastic frog, it is getting no power, so the motor stops!

Check that ALL the pick-ups are pressing on the backs of the wheels, even when the wheel is manually pressed gently sideways, and adjust the springy wipers until they maintain contact.

Also make sure the wipers and wheel-backs are clean!

Assuming the problem loco IS a shunter, an easy solution is to have a 'shunter's truck' permanently coupled, with extra pick-ups on that, and hard-wired to the loco, thus spreading out the 'contact area' with the track. (This will require a little bit of fiddling and modifying, both to the loco and the truck, but it is nothing drastic, and can be undone again, if necessary).

[pando]

thx 2e0dtoeric,

You are spot on ... the 0-6-0 DCC Jinty that comes with Twin Freight Set is the offending Loco.The shunter from the same set (also 0-6-0) is fine, oddly enough.

So 0-6-0 only have 1 wheel with pickup?

anyway P2, A4 and King class all make it through without hesitation.

[96RAF]

I have a Bacchy Jinty and it was terrible over Hornby points also.

 

After investigation I found the moulded springs under the chassis were grounding and lifting the wheels off track causing the stall, so I took a file to them and the problem has gone away.

 

You may wish to inspect your Hornby Jinty for a similar 'fault'.

[Howbi]

@Pando.........the 'Jinty' steam loco in the Freight Set has the same chassis as the Class08 and both have 6 wheel pick-ups so in theory, when traversing turnouts there are always 2 axles in contact with live rails as the plastic frog only affects 1 axle at a time........HB