Hornby Accesory Decoder Set Up

[modelman]

This might seem like a simple problem but I seem to be having some problem with setting up my accessory decoder. I have the new hornby accesory decoder which is wired up to four points and the power feeds connected to my dcc track bus and I have programmed them according to the instructions but the unit doesnt seem to respond. I have attached seperate wires to power output direct to the programming output and nothing has happened. I register the CV but it flashes six times instead of five and when I connected it to the main output with my track nothing has happened. I don't know what I've done wrong. Can anyone help me please? I only have the four points and I want to operate them with the railmaster software but I can't seem to do that either.

[2e0dtoeric]

What controller are you using?

What kind and brand of point motors are you using?

Do your loco's still work?

[modelman]

What controller are you using?

What kind and brand of point motors are you using?

Do your loco's still work?

The hornby elite and peco points and all my locos are running smoothly

[96RAF]

As this is closely allied to the thread Power Outage, I expect the outcome will be much the same answer.

 

My advice is go back to square one and start again slowly, following the instructions, and with a point motor connected to port 1 which will fire to indicate programming was successfull

[modelman]

As this is closely allied to the thread Power Outage, I expect the outcome will be much the same answer.

 

My advice is go back to square one and start again slowly, following the instructions, and with a point motor connected to port 1 which will fire to indicate programming was successfull

Yeah that seems to have done the trick. I got my points working. I just have another that are connected via terminal blocks though, because there too far away to reach the terminals. I can't get them to change though.

[Chrissaf]

I have attached seperate wires to power output direct to the programming output and nothing has happened.

.

I do hope that the above statement you made is just a poorly worded sentence and that you haven't wired it up as your text suggests. You MUST not have any connection between your Elite 'Programming' AND 'Track' A&B outputs.

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When programming a R8247 the Elite 'Programming' A&B output connects to the DCC Power Input on the R8247. The normal R8247 DCC Power In wires must be disconnected during the programming activity.

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Remember, out of the box, the R8247 is already pre-programmed as point port addresses 1 to 4 to control solenoid points as the default. Thus, if you are only ever anticipating using no more than four points, then you don't have to do any reconfiguration at all.

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Make sure that when the Elite powers up, the LCD display briefly shows "Standard". If it shows "Classic" change the Elite back to "Standard" mode first. See page 67 of the version 1.41 Elite manual.

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Just connect it up to the Elite main track A&B output.

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To operate the first port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 1
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

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To operate the second port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 2
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

.

To operate the third port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 3
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

.

To operate the fourth port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 4
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

.

If the R8247 still doesn't respond. Write decimal value 8 to CV8 to reset the R8247 to factory default (R8247 must be connected to the Elite program output to do this). If after a reset, the R8247 still does not respond (when reconnected back onto the main A&B track output of the Elite), check your point wiring to ensure it is wired correctly. The C terminal of the R8247 goes to the centre connection of the two solenoid coils. The outer connections of the two solenoid coils goes to the R8247 + & - terminals.

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EDIT: I see you have resolved your issue whilst I was busy typing this reply. I have left my reply intact as it contains additional information.

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I only have the four points and I want to operate them with the railmaster software but I can't seem to do that either.

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1. Build your track plan in RailMaster (RailMaster v1.64 manual pages 77 to 98).
2. Add point control buttons to your four points placed on the track plan (manual pages 85 to 87)
3. Right click the point control buttons and fill in the dialogue boxes with the configuration information (manual pages 85 to 87).
4. Save your edited track plan and select it as the start up track plan in RailMaster system settings window (manual page 22).
5. Now clicking the point control icon buttons on your track plan should throw the appropriate point.

[modelman]

I have attached seperate wires to power output direct to the programming output and nothing has happened.

.

I do hope that the above statement you made is just a poorly worded sentence and that you haven't wired it up as your text suggests. You MUST not have any connection between your Elite 'Programming' AND 'Track' A&B outputs.

.

When programming a R8247 the Elite 'Programming' A&B output connects to the DCC Power Input on the R8247. The normal R8247 DCC Power In wires must be disconnected during the programming activity.

.

Remember, out of the box, the R8247 is already pre-programmed as point port addresses 1 to 4 to control solenoid points as the default. Thus, if you are only ever anticipating using no more than four points, then you don't have to do any reconfiguration at all.

.

Make sure that when the Elite powers up, the LCD display briefly shows "Standard". If it shows "Classic" change the Elite back to "Standard" mode first. See page 67 of the version 1.41 Elite manual.

.

Just connect it up to the Elite main track A&B output.

.

To operate the first port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 1
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

.

To operate the second port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 2
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

.

To operate the third port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 3
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

.

To operate the fourth port........On the Elite.

1. Press the 'ACC' button
2. Press Keypad button 4
3. Press Knob 1 to accept
4. Now press Knob 1 to switch one way and press Knob 2 to switch the other.

.

If the R8247 still doesn't respond. Write decimal value 8 to CV8 to reset the R8247 to factory default (R8247 must be connected to the Elite program output to do this). If after a reset, the R8247 still does not respond (when reconnected back onto the main A&B track output of the Elite), check your point wiring to ensure it is wired correctly. The C terminal of the R8247 goes to the centre connection of the two solenoid coils. The outer connections of the two solenoid coils goes to the R8247 + & - terminals.

.

EDIT: I see you have resolved your issue whilst I was busy typing this reply. I have left my reply intact as it contains additional information.

.

I only have the four points and I want to operate them with the railmaster software but I can't seem to do that either.

.

1. Build your track plan in RailMaster (RailMaster v1.64 manual pages 77 to 98).
2. Add point control buttons to your four points placed on the track plan (manual pages 85 to 87)
3. Right click the point control buttons and fill in the dialogue boxes with the configuration information (manual pages 85 to 87).
4. Save your edited track plan and select it as the start up track plan in RailMaster system settings window (manual page 22).
5. Now clicking the point control icon buttons on your track plan should throw the appropriate point.

Yeah I seem to have got the accessory decoder to work on it's own but it doesn't seem to be working when it's connected to my main tracks power bus. Everything else seems to.

[Chrissaf]

May I humbly suggest that you refrain from using the 'Blue Box with the White Arrow' when replying. This is not a 'Reply to this Message' button. It would be better, if you scroll to the bottom of the page and write your text in the great big empty 'Reply' text box and click the 'Green Reply' button.

[modelman]

Oh ok. Anyway Like I was saying I manged to get the accessory decoder to work on it's own but it doesn't seem to be working when it's connected to my main tracks power bus. Everything else seems to.

[Chrissaf]

How is it physically connected to the underboard BUS. Another user recently had the same problem and it turned out to be an issue with the 'clam shell' crimping wire connectors he was using.

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A photo of the BUS connection would really help.

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If you have access to a Multi-meter. Put it on '20 volts AC Voltage range'. Measure the voltage across the DCC INPUT wires on the R8247 decoder. You should get a reading of about 14.5 volts AC. Don't use a DC voltage meter, that will read nothing.

[modelman]

I'll give the multi meter test a try and see what I come up with. Anyway this is what I have in regards to connections to my decoder. /media/tinymce_upload/e1694cc001867c549b19436297929f1b.jpg

This is what I have in regards to connections from the decoder to my power bus

 

/media/tinymce_upload/3e5d9a8a94a50379a10293289ad9beae.jpg

/media/tinymce_upload/5f2028db05c146d372884d5bfb6b7800.jpg

This is the connections I have made to my surface mount points. I think I forgot to mention that all the point motors are peco motors.

[96RAF]

You need to look at those Track A-B connections. The wire strands should be twisted together and preferably tinned then inserted in the terminals such that when the screw is tightend it clamps the wire securely.

 

DCC signals dont need any encouragement to corrupt and those wires arent helping a good signal.

[Chrissaf]

I will await your Multi-meter test before commenting further, but I would be using the meter to check out the connectivity of the 'clam shell' wire connecting crimps i.e. is there about 15 volts AC appearing on the Brown and Blue wires connecting to the decoder A&B track terminals. Not completely clear from the angle of the photo, but the Brown wire appears to have missed the screw clamping hole.

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I use that particular style of crimp myself (with the push in spade connector feature) and have had no issues with them in over three years of usage.

[modelman]

Ah right I see now. I was actually thinking last night when I looked at the photos that it might be something to do with the crimps themselves. I originally added them and another two a while ago when I was trying to use an ESU accessory decoder. I mainly got these crimps as part of the no solder DCC bus kit from express models. Anyway I'll give the mutli-meter test a try and see what the result is.

[modelman]

Yeah that seems to have done the trick! I just tinned the ends of the connecting wires and attached them to another part of my power bus and they work. The decoder now works on the points and via the controller. I've got two points wired up via terminal blocks that are not responding though. Do I need to solder the wires from the points to the extension wire? Also I have one point that clicks but doesn't change as well but I don't know if I had it connected properly.

[Chrissaf]

Either.....

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1. The wiring is not making good contact at the joints.
2. The wiring is incorrectly wired.
3. The solenoid point motors are poorly aligned.

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Re: item 1 in the list, the Nylon screw terminal strips usually make good contact. Are the individual wires adequately stripped to reveal bare wires. Are the bare wires securely trapped under the screws. Use your Multi-meter on ohms scale to test for wiring continuity through the joints (no power on when doing this check). You have stated Peco points, but you have not stated what point motors you are using PL10 (underboard) or PL11 (surface mount)?. If PL10, are the wires on the point tags secure?, are they soldered?, are they via miniature female spades?.

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Re: item 2 in the list, to what wiring scheme are you wiring your points?. Peco use the same three colours as Hornby but do not use the same configuration for those three wires. Hornby use the Black wire as the 'common return' whereas Peco use the 'Green' wire for the 'common return'. If you cross the Black and the Green wires, the point will not function correctly, although it may work in one direction only (see drawing below to see why). People miswiring Peco PL11 point motors (crossing the Green & Black) is a common issue that comes up on this forum many times.

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Re: item 3 in the list, the point motor alignment is critical. If it is off by just a couple of mm it will fail to fire correctly. This is compounded by the weak internal Capacitor Discharge Unit (CDU) contained within the R8247, IMHO particularly noticeable when used with Peco brand point motors. I know this from personal experience as I use Peco point products with the R8247. There is no easy test to identify poor alignment, but if you rest your finger lightly on the point operating rod, can you feel any movement however slight when you fire the point i.e is the point trying to operate?. Perform this finger test in both directions of point travel.

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Miswiring the point, why the point only operates in one direction explanation.

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/media/tinymce_upload/859d3fe70d7733582e5f8c132a88cd40.jpg

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Using circuit A in above drawing as the reference. The correct colours for PECO POINT wiring is:

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• Red connects to + terminal on the R8247.
• Green connects to C terminal on the R8247, thus the Green connects to one side of BOTH solenoid coils.
• Black connects to - terminal on the R8247.

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Using circuit A in above drawing as the reference. The correct colours for HORNBY POINT wiring is:

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• Red connects to + terminal on the R8247.
• Black connects to C terminal on the R8247, thus the Black connects to one side of BOTH solenoid coils.
• Green connects to - terminal on the R8247.

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Also I have one point that clicks but doesn't change

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It may click but not operate if either miswired as per diagram above or poorly aligned.

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I must stress that Peco PL10 point motors need absolutely perfect physical alignment to work with the Hornby R8247. If using PL11 surface mount point motors, do not over tighten the fixing screws. Just tight enough to hold the motor in place but no more.

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PS - Regarding PL10. If using PL10 motors are they directly attached to the underside of the point? (this would give perfect alignment) OR are they mounted via either the PL9 or PL15 optional mounting brackets?. The PL15 incorporates a pair of changeover switches and is easily recognisable.

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Please do try to answer as many of the questions raised above marked with ? as possible in your next reply. The additional information does help.....

 

 

[modelman]

I went back over the point connections again with the mutlimeter and couldn't get a response. However I did take a look at the wires from both the side mount points and the wires connecting them to the decoder and found out I didn't tin them and those from the points had broken off. I just tinned the ends of those wires and have got those ones working now.

I've checked the wiring to the point that won't move. I just replaced the female spade connections and I have got it switching in one direction but not the other way. I don't know if it might be the point motor itself or the fitting of it. I'll have to take another look to see. I don't know if I might have to replace the motor alltogether or re-fit it.

[modelman]

It works! I found out that the PL-11 motors were pinned down too tightly after all and the wires from them had lost their tinned ends. I've re-soldered them and tinned all the other wire ends and gave the PL-10 that wouldn't switch a jitter and move slightly and it now switches. I believe it was all down to the way it was all wired up that was the problem after all but I didn't realize it. Thank you very much for all your help and advice. I really appreciate it and it has been really helpful. I'm still fairly new to full DCC control and operations and just know the plug and play procedure and not the complex things like CV's and the like.

[RB51]

Excellent result - and thanks for coming back to tell us all. R-

[Chrissaf]

It works! I found out that the PL-11 motors were pinned down too tightly after all..........and gave the PL-10 that wouldn't switch a jitter and move slightly and it now switches.

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Glad that you now have it sorted. Was it the paragraph (copy pasted below) from my previous post that gave you the clue? 

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I must stress that Peco PL10 point motors need absolutely perfect physical alignment to work with the Hornby R8247. If using PL11 surface mount point motors, do not over tighten the fixing screws. Just tight enough to hold the motor in place but no more.

[shippingboy]

These accessory decoders seem to give a few of us real headaches - I have a good sized layout mostly Hornby track and engines (a few exceptions) and after a few quiet years I am now trying to finish this and am fitting surface mounted point motors / all hornby / mostly in their packaging using an accessory BUS and an Elite to control just the points - locos are controlled by elink (want to get the points to works first then I might move them across to elink) - first 9 points/2 x R8216 went ok but I am now in real trouble with getting the next lot to work - using R8216s (all with the 05/07 mark on) - I have tried the combination of used R8216 and new points / unopened R8216 etc etc etc i.e. as many combinations as I can think of - is there the remotest chance that I have a rotten collection of R8216 or ???? Is there a way i can factory reset them and try again ??? any other suggestions - I have at least another 16 points wire up and 4 R8216s some of which I have never opened - i have just read all the above and have put a multimeter and I have an excellent power supply - I have sent something similar to Hornby as well - it is strnage thet i have got som eto work an not others ??? 

[Chrissaf]

The following is a pasted extract from Page 58 of the Elite manual.

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The Hornby R8247 Accessory/Point Decoder may be programmed and read back in Direct mode. The older R8216 Point Decoder must be programmed in Reg mode. Read back is not supported. Note: The R8216 requires pre-charging for 20 seconds by connecting it to the Elite ‘Track’ output before disconnecting and connecting to the ‘Programme’ output for programming.

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Note the two comments above in bold. The R8216 is an older decoder and had its issues when it was new, it was replaced by the current R8247 decoder for which the highlighted restrictions above do not apply. The R8247 has been the current decoder for quite a few years now, so your R8216s must be quite old.

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The requirement for pre-charging is quite important on these older R8216 decoders.

[shippingboy]

thanks for that Chrissas - i thought i had charged it long enough - I have just got it working (well one out of 4) but I had left if 'on charge' for a good 30 minutes .... perhaps that is the secret and then I prgrammed using Reg and did it about 3 times and it seems to be working - thanks for all the input to me and to others on this problem - all a bit tricky at times - brgds

 

[shippingboy]

I have now managed to get 3 R8216's working 14 points (with the code 05/07 on and I have coded them using an elite 1-4 5-8 and 9-12) points 8 and 9 are double and work fine.  I have a power BUS only supplying R8216 and points which by the time it runs around the board it is about 10 metres long. the first R8216 is at the far end of the BUS  and points 3 and 4 don't want to work - could this be a power problem and if it is should I fit a CDU at the beginning of the BUS ??  I bave double checked all connections which have all been soldered etc etc TC but it is very weird that 2 out of 14 don't want to fire - any ideas appreciated 

[Fishmanoz]

You most definitely cannot fit a CDU as you suggest on a DCC bus.  Unless you are using. Rey light wire on your bus, I would suspect that your 8316 is faulty. But easy to check, if you can swap it for another one that is working ok.