Ullswater Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 HelloAs my layout progresses I am trying to eradicate various problems. This one is driving me slightly mad!The current one that I am focussing on is the fact that my fairly new Hornby Sentinel loco (small with only two axles) struggles at slow speeds (10mph scale) to make it across some Hornby points (R8072 and R8073). I have been putting in quite a lot of time today cleaning the points, ensuring the bus is connected up to those points, cleaning the wheels of the loco etc. I am using IPA to do the cleaning.The loco runs fine at that speed on clean straight track.The problem is somewhat intermittent in that the Sentinel will get across a similarly configured point elsewhere without problems. When it does stop, it seems to be at the insulated cross over of the point. I have point clips fitted.Unfortunately my other larger locos are away being serviced so I can't test those in similar conditions.I suppose my question is: should I expect the Sentinel to traverse these points successfully first time, every time at slow speeds, or is it just the nature of the beast?Many thanks for all and any adviceBen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pidder Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 My SentineI is the same.This is the reason I've given up on 4 wheel locos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo1707820979 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Hi BenMy Sentinel also an indifferent runner over points so it appears to be the nature of the beast as you suggest.If you look at an earlier post about installing a decoder in the Sentinel you will find a very good answer from 37lover, complete with pictures showing a solution to this problem. Hope this helps. Jimbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I have a couple that occasionally stuttered over points. I have added a permanent wagon to them with pickups. Problem solved. Peco points are far better and cause less trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullswater Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 Thanks for the replies on this - very helpful indeed.Could anybody point me to where I could find instructions on how to add a wagon with pickups? This is not something I have seen before.Incidentally I have found a forum on another website with a user declaring that the Sentinel is a sweet runner which goes exceptionally well over insulfrogs! Sadly not my experience.I also fear it is a bit late for me now to change to Peco points. One lives and learns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I dont have a sentinel, but do have all gornby points, and 9x, 4 wheel locos, none of whom have any problem with my points . Does this suggest its just a sentinel thing. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigskybirds Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I have two Sentinel Locomotives both have no problem negotiating Hornby or Peco insulfrog points at a crawling speed.Make sure your points are flat, I screw mine down rather than pin them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Flat points is without any doubt the most important thing. I always fix a track pin as near to the centre of points as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullswater Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 Excellent advice, thanks very much. I will have a go at making sure my points are flat. I suspect they are not. Since the point only comes with three pre-drilled holes, which are at the ends, I assume you drill another hole near the centre of the point? Any advice on a good drill for making that size of hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2e0dtoeric Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 0.5mm (half a milli) and don't use your wacking great hammer-drill!Use a finger-drill, which looks like a screwdriver but with a tiny chuck in the end to grip the equally tiny drill, which looks like a hair!Even an 'Artesian' drill, which has a corkscrew type thread that you slide a collet up and down to turn the chuck, is too severe, and will snap the drill bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I use Hornby Track pins. I have just measured one at 1.23mm, so a drill more like 1.4mm or 1.5mm would be required for those. I use a Pin Chuck in a small Hand Drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigskybirds Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 I used to have a problem with some locomotives stalling on points, not always 0-4-0's. I read how important it was for points to be flat so purchased some very small brass hing screws and placed them between the check rails so the insulfrog area is flush to the board. I then paint the head black so they are not easily visible. Since then no further problems with over 100 locomotives and lots of points. The advantage of screws for me was if I need to remove a point it is very quick and easy and leaves no visible damage to the sleepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullswater Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 I have two Sentinel Locomotives both have no problem negotiating Hornby or Peco insulfrog points at a crawling speed.Make sure your points are flat, I screw mine down rather than pin them.I am going to try screwing the points down; could anybody recommend where to get screws small enough to go through the track pin holes in points, and long enough to also get through the Gaugemaster foam ballast I am using and into the baseboard? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 The points sleepers are predrilled (Hornby ones at least are) to suit their track pins which are fairly thick but short. I use a 1mm drill to pilot the baseboard and that provides for a firm grip. Long ago on here there was discussion about sourcing long thin screws but I cant find it so it may have been on the old forum, the content of which was supposed to carry over to this new forum. From memory we found some about 1.5mm which may have been OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2e0dtoeric Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Try - http://www.modelfixings.co.uk/fixings.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullswater Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 Thanks 2e0d and RAF. I have ordered some and will report back here on how I get on!In investigating yesterday I discovered that I could make my Sentinel run well over the point if I held down the point in particular way, almost like the point is twisted and needs being firmly screwed down. I'm sure I will get there eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Found the post - if all else fails ask the search box for what your are looking for...https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/screwing-down-track/#post-128000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitter Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 self tapping track screws : ebay item# : 400459779546. priced at approx £16 for 1000. 1.2mm x 12mm. (China). I had to drill my chipwood base-board with 1/2mm drill to allow screwing down of track. Could not find anyone doing smaller amount to reduce price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullswater Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 I thought I would report back here on progress so far with my attempts to get all my locos (including my Sentinel) to traverse my points without stuttering, even at low speeds. I don't want to build any more of my (half built) layout until I know what method to use for best results ....Having done lots of reading of all the advice on this thread and also on other forums, I have tried using brand new Hornby points and also the equivalent Peco points. I have also replaced the Gaugemaster foam underlay under the points with 3mm plywood on top of my baseboard so that I can try to ensure the points are completely flat. I would say that my results show that Peco points are better, and my Helena Victoria and A1A Diesel run perfectly even at very slow speeds, but the smaller trains do sometimes stutter or stall, particularly at scale speeds of 10mph or less.BigSkyBirds, I am greatly encouraged however that you have managed to achieve smooth running for all types of locos. I'd like to try to replicate what you have done so had some questions:Are you using Hornby R8072 and R8073 insulfrog points? Do all your locos, even 0-4-0s, run smoothly even at scale speeds below 10mph? Could you advise how many screws you use to hold down your points and and at what positions on the points?Finally .... if I fail with insulfrogs, it seems that the general view is that electrofrogs will pretty much guarantee smooth running, but the wiring is a bit more complicated. But I haven't been able to find an electrofrog equivalent of Hornby's R8072/3. Are there any or would I have to redesign my layout to use different geometry points?Thanks for all and any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 But I haven't been able to find an electrofrog equivalent of Hornby's R8072/3. Are there any or would I have to redesign my layout to use different geometry points?.Don't know about other brands, but definitely no Electrofrogs in the PECO range with the same geometry as Hornby R8072/3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigskybirds Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 @Ullswater I use both Peco and Hornby insulfrog points, there are now 47 positioned on my layout. I have two Sentinels the Wabtec and Esso. The Esso is DC and I have just converted the Wabtec to DCC. The Wabtec did appear in one of my videos when it was DC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHs-JwIMBsk I use small brass hing screws to fasten down my points and position them at the side of the check rails so the heads of the screws hold the sleepers down to the board. I do not put the screw through the sleeper holes. This allows me to remove track without and damage and very quickly. I paint the screw heads black so they are not easily visible. I will try to do you another video but if you look at those I have already done I am not in to running locos at speed and ensure that ALL my locos will run smoothly because if one does not then something is wrong and it is usually the pickups. Clean track and wheels are also important and I have a track cleaning session using a Hornby track rubber and Isop fluid every week. If you use Isop fluid keep it off the insulfrogs it can soften them. Just found another video with the Esso Sentinel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im7ZSXlzc0o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullswater Posted December 2, 2016 Author Share Posted December 2, 2016 @BigSkyBirdsThanks for sharing those videos. Very impressive slow running. I am inspired to keep going and see if I can achieve the same results consistently with my insulfrogs.I will report back .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigskybirds Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 @Ullswater There is no need to use live frog points to enable slow running, it is all down to ensuring the wheels keep in contact with the rails. I had the same issues you describe until I ensured the points were completely flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullswater Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 I just wanted to say thanks for everybody on the forum for your advice, particularly bigskybirds for where to put the screws as that really has sorted out the problem and everything is going pretty well for the Sentinel now. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Flat points is without any doubt the most important thing. I always fix a track pin as near to the centre of points as possible. Thank you WTD (A bit late I know). This has to be one of the most important tips I have read. Despite having fixed my Track down in a manner that I thought was very flat, I realised that when I pressed down in the middle of some of my Points, I could feel ever such a slight bit of movement at the outer edge. I have 32 sets of points on my layout and I guess just about half have needed this mod. An extra hole in a sleeper at the centre of the points, drilled at 1.3mm has made a tremendous difference and now even a 0-4-0 LMS, that regularly stopped previously, passes over the points at incredibly slow speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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