Firing 2 Points Together

[The Captain90]

I saw this topic many months ago but my search of the Forum has failed to find it.

After a long wait I am now building my layout. I am using the Hornby R8247 and after much thought have decided to wire 2 points that will fire similtanously to 2 separate decoders to alieviate any problem.

Anyway have programmed the first decoder with ports 1,2,3,& 4. The first point in the pair is wired into port 1. Thought that the second decoder would be programmed with ports 1,6,7,8 with the second point in the pair being wired to port 1 on the second decoder.

Connected the second decoder to the programming output and it won't let me change the ports numbers specified above. I can only have them as 1,2,3,4 or 5,6,7,8.

Am I on the right track (no pun intended) here or am I doing somethging wrong.

 

 

 

[Fishmanoz]

You are correct, port numbers will always be consecutive and the first port should be numbered 4n + 1 where n is any number (n=0 for ports 1-4). 

[The Captain90]

Thanks Fishmanoz. Now I'm even more confused. If I want both points to fire together and I put one into Decoder A port 1 and the second into Decoder B port 4 how do I tell Railmaster to fire both points when I click on either points icon?

[96RAF]

If you always want to fire them both at once then wire them both into channel 1 of decoder 1.

 

If you need to fire them independantly at times then you need to wire them as separate channels, but you can rig RM to throw one from the other, but this may be a Pro-Pack feature.

 

This of course ties one to the other again, so the other way is to set a route in RM, although I think RM calls them groups, there has been previous discussion about this on here somewhere.

[RB51]

In essence Captain, just wire them into the same port - any port. The decoder you're using is up to it. R-

[The Captain90]

Thanks for the advise. I think I would like to fire the points from 2 separate decoders. RAF96 said this can be configured in RM Pro (which I have). Have read the manual and can't find how to do this. Does anyone know where in the manual it is or alternately how it is done?

[St1ngr4y]

If you look on page 87 on the RM guide, it shows the configuration window for a point. Assuming you use decoder ports 1 & 5 for the two points, then in the configuration of the point on decoder port 1, in the "Other point/signal" section put in two entries. In the first entry, column 1 select the red button, in the middle column select point 5 and in the thrid column select the red button. Do the same in the second entry but for the green buttons instead of the red ones. Then go to the configuration window of point 5 and put in two similar entries there, but referencing point 1 instead.

Having done that and saved your layout, then pressing red or green on either point will cause the other point to fire as well.

Ray

[Chrissaf]

RM manual version 1.64 Page 87 under the title "Other Points / Signals........." see capture from page 87 below. 

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Note however that it redirects the reader to page 82 for the required detail.....see extract of page 82 below.

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In essence (in the Track Design window of RM), when you 'Right Click' the first point (let's call it point A for the sake of description). You enter the associated point address in the 'Other Point / Signal' box. Lets call that one point B.

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Then you do the same in the point B configuration box, but put point A as the 'Other Point / Signal' entry.

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Thus you end up with a configuration where clicking point A on the plan operates point A and point B. Clicking point B on the plan operates point B and point A. Both points A & B are therefore linked to operate together. Of course, my references to A & B are in reality numerical point DCC addresses.

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EDIT: Ray got in before me whilst I was cutting, pasting & typing. Between us, we must have covered all that you need to know.

 

[The Captain90]

Thanks guys. Must have missed that section in reading the manual. Having said that I have found at times some parts of the manual to be confusing.

Just to let you know it's taken me 18 months but I have started to build my layout (had to renovate "manland" first). The baseboard is 3.6 metres x 1.6 metres. I am using Peco flexitrack and electrofrog points ans so far out of 34 metres have layed 4 and installed 6 points. Only one point wired up yet and it fired (Guagemaster PM1) first go - shock to me. Needing to refine my soldering skills but it's getting there.

Only hiccup has been laying the flexitrack with which I have been using Tracksetta templates. It sounds easy on the YouTube clips I have watched but it in my opinion is not that easy. For some reason using the 24" radius template and starting 10mm from one edge the curve ran off the other side even though the baseboard is more than 48" wide.

Thanks again for the help both now and whilst I was in the planning stage.

[Chrissaf]

Usual thing with the Hornby documentation. It's all in there somewhere (well mostly) but hidden away in the small print. Must have been written by a lawyer.

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The other problem with the Hornby documentation, is the information about a feature is there, but hardly ever a practicable worked example of how to use it is included.

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The Tracksetta is an excellent concept once mastered, but they only do fairly shallow curves. I think from memory 2 foot radius is the tightest.

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As I, like you, used Peco flexi-track. I manufactured my own templates out of a sheet of plywood using a router attached to a home made 'arc' guide. Basically a length of metal flat bar bolted to the router plate. Drilled with holes at specific radius distances. A pin fixed into the plywood at the centre of the arc gave a pivot point for the router guide flat bar holes. The router then follows the metal flat bar guide in an arc to cut out a series of ever increasing radius curves in the plywood. The result is a series of plywood curves that I temporarily screwed to the baseboard and then used them to guide the flexitrack along an even steady and consistent curve as I pinned the flexi-track down. Then unscrewed the home made guide and moved to the next section of the curve and repeated. It worked very well. I stored the plywood arcs away in the attic just in the off chance I might need them again, but unlikely to need to on current plans.

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PS - A tip that might help. I accurately drew my track plan down on the baseboard with a felt tip pen. I used a length of thin timber with accurately measured holes (in the absence of a very large compass) to create accurate radius curves. Using the pin in the hole technique as described above with the router. For the straights I used my 3 foot and 5 foot spirit levels, as that gave a very long perfectly straight edge. The combination of the timber compass substitute and the long straight edges gave me an accurate track plan marked out on the baseboard that I could follow when actually laying the track.

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The other thing I did, was I printed and cut out the full size Peco point templates that Peco publish as downloadable PDF's on their website. I glued these accurately onto large pieces of thin card, then pinned these to the baseboard. Thus I could ensure that the point motor positions would miss all the under-board support battens (they had not been fitted at that stage of construction). The point templates also gave something to mark my track layout up to using the felt tip pen.

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The end result was that I could see that my whole track plan fitted on the boards and would be viable and cleared the edges etc before a single length of actual track was laid. Having the plan to follow, also meant that I was less likely to go off course and end up will an alignment issue when I got back to my starting point on the oval.

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The photo below is an example of what I have been trying to describe in the text above. You can see the lines indicating proposed track paths. At the top of the photo you can just make out one of the cardboard point plan templates. I should point out that all the marking out was done on flat sheets of baseboard before they were cut up and shaped.

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PS - The reason there is rolling stock on the track. I was testing all the track for derailment hot spots and clearances etc as I laid it.

 

[96RAF]

@chris - an anvil? Some heavy engineering going on there.

@captain - i also use the wooden compass. Simple strip of wood with suitable holes drilled for the centre point and various set radii.

[Chrissaf]

That photo was taken a few years ago. I cannot remember exactly what I used the anvil for now. But most likely to hold the flexi-track down on the curves whilst I got a few temp pins in. Peco flexi-track is very springy and wants to straighten itself all the time. For temporary fixing before committing to final fixing, I used the large thumb pins that one uses on a cork wall notice board in an office. You can just see a white one on the end of a piece of track adjacent to the cab of the Class 20.

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Rob, If you look at the timestamp on the post with the photo. You may notice the the edit time is shown 10 minutes BEFORE the posting time. How could this be? Answer: UK clocks went back 1 hour to GMT at 02:00AM

[96RAF]

We also fell back on the clock this morning Chris despite our distance from UK, must be a throwback to colonial times.

Rob

[Chrissaf]

I have one clock (part of a Weather Station) in the house that uses the German radio time transmitter for auto synchronisation, all the other auto clocks I have use Rugby. Anyway, this particular German one always changes a day later than all the others. Consistent little thing, same every year. So I've been on Google this morning to try and see why. Well Germany also changes time in the early hours of Sunday morning the same as you and I. So it must be more than just an ex Brit colonies thing. The only explanation I can come up with for this day later phenomenon, is that my German Weather Station clock must only be checking its displayed time against the German time signal every few days and not more frequently. However this theory has a flaw in it, a year has an odd number of days (365), so each year the date of the Sunday time change (baring leap years) moves by one day. So sooner or later the day the clock checks the time signal should coincide with the day the time actually changes. But no, every single year my German time piece readjusts 24 hours after all the others, very strange.

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This morning has been a busy morning. I have a total of 19 bits of kit that display time (excluding PCs). 13 of which need manual adjustment. Not just clocks, Microwave, Cooker Oven, Central Heating Programmer, several other misc Lighting Timers, Phones etc. You don't realise how many time displaying bits of kit one acquires until you have to put them back and forward an hour each year. I have a spreadsheet check list for it, so that I don't forget any of them.

[Chrissaf]

Come up with a workable theory for the German time piece changing a day late. If it (for example) checks the German radio time signal each day at midnight only. Then the Sunday 02:00 time change won't be detected until midnight the following day. If I'm up late tonight and remember, I'll keep checking the clock time to see if I can catch what time it actually changes.

[pidder]

My bedside lamp changed between 2 and 3 this morning, not sure of the actual time, two of my normal perambulations...

As to the original subject of this post, can't really see why one should need to fire two points simultaneously, in my view, a lot of the fun comes from remembering to set the traffic route correctly, points set individually as in real practice?

[Fishmanoz]

It is common practice to fire both points in a crossover between loops together as they must both always be set straight or to cross over.  And in general, they can be operated reliably this way connected to a single accessory decoder port and not have to use 2 ports.

 

Some also want to do simultaneous switching in a passing loop but this more complicated with RM.  A forum search will bring up previous coverage and solutions.

[The Captain90]

I have done as some suggested and set up a "group" to fire both points together (but on separate decoders). This has worked in the main and both points have fired together on about half the occasions. The other half only one point has fired and a second click of the mouse is required to get the other point to change. The graphic on the mimic plan shows both points have moved. Not sure why this could be the case. Any thoughts?

Having said the above, one of the points I have found the polarity is not changing (using Gaugemaster Seep PM1 motors) which results in a short as the loco passes. Have checked all wiring and all seems ok. Don't think it is my soldering on the PM1 but before changing to a new one thought I would see if anyone has suggestions. I have also checked for continuity by squeezing one prong of my multimeter onto the soldering on the PM1 and it appears OK.

[96RAF]

It may just be a slightly sticky motor Captn. Have you got fire motors set at single,or double pulse in your .ini file. How to do it is in the manual.

[The Captain90]

Thanks RAF96. The Double Pulse line was not in my ini file. I have added Double pulse=1 and will see how it goes. Still trying to work out my polarity switch problem. Having a break from this frustrating job for a while and back to laying track.

[Chrissaf]

Having said the above, one of the points I have found the polarity is not changing (using Gaugemaster Seep PM1 motors).

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The switch arrangement on the Seep PM1 has a very tight tolerance. The PM1 has to be mounted absolutely in the middle (left and right) for the switch to function reliably. The PM1 probably just needs a bit of alignment adjustment.

[The Captain90]

Thanks Chris for your reply. Checked the alignment and the "wire" is definately being thrown right across the PM1 (underside between the 2 solinoids). When the point is thrown the wire rests right alongside the solinoid so I guess its mounted right??

 

[The Captain90]

Haven't really done anything but now the switch appears to be working. One strange thing however, the track voltage is 15.7v but this particular point has the frog voltage fluctuating between 7v & 8v. Don't know why this would be so. Is anyone able to shed any light?

[St1ngr4y]

Can you just verify that your points are connected to ports on two different R8247s, as opposed to two ports on the same R8247?

As for your latest query regarding frog voltage, can you explain how you have wired the PM1 to cater for the frog polarity switching?

Ray

[The Captain90]

Thanks Ray. Yes the points are connected to two different R8247's.

With regard wiring the frog switch I have soldered a wire to tab F on the PM1 with the other end being soldiered direct to the frog rail (like a dropper). I have not used the wire that comes with the PM1 as it looked to me to be pretty flimsey (I cut it off). Have done the same to 3 other points and their voltage is the same as the track voltage.