TrainTech new signalling product launch

[Chrissaf]

TrainTech announced at Warley, a new TrainTech SS range of DCC fitted signalling products. SS for Sensor Signals. Basically, the new range of signals have an integrated train detection sensor and use a single data Bus wire to allow communication between signals, such that downstream signals interact and change status to a change of status of the upstream signal. According to the email I got from TT this morning, the new signals are in production for launch during December. More details plus pricing in datasheet image captures below:

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[St1ngr4y]

Very interesting, but too late for me as I have all of the signalling I need in place. I'd be interested to find out how the sensor works. As far as I can see, it must be triggered by the wheels of the train passing. How does it know when the last vehicle of a train has passed?

It's good to see the feathered signals though, as well as the "Theatre indicators". I hope these will be made available as "ordinary" DCC signals.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hornby will be watching carefully.

 

Great news as it could push Hornby to get things started with LD.

 

An interesting development, I think.

 

I have all my signals and feather indicators now, but anyone who hasn't could ditch their wait for LD.

 

Nice to see feathers and theatre indicators.

[RDS]

I  don't see this as anything like competition for the LD system that was described to us by Hornby, a long time ago.  I just wish that we knew a bit more about the LD situation from Hornby.  If I had been at the Warley show, that is the only question I would have asked after the presentation.  Did anyone ask?

[Chrissaf]

In answer to Ray's question:

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It's good to see the feathered signals though, as well as the "Theatre indicators". I hope these will be made available as "ordinary" DCC signals.

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Yes Ray, they will......see this extracted page from the TT PDF I received via mail this morning.

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[Chrissaf]

HFM, It was my PICaxe thread that instigated my mail to TrainTech requesting more information. The PDF they sent me this morning was in response to my 'more information' request. I have subsequently asked for further clarification on the nature of the sensor used on the SS range. As yet, I have not had a reply, but will post again if I get any more info from them.

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PS - The 'regular' TrainTech DS range do not have the auto loco detection integrated into them that my PICaxe circuit (and the Heathcote product) provided. These new SS range signals do.

[52train]

Iam about to get traintech signals for my layout Chris do you think it will be OK to work with RailMaster with ProPack.

[2e0dtoeric]

Looks very interesting, and slves a lot of the usual underboard spaghetti problems.

[Chrissaf]

52Train, I'm not really the right person to ask, as I do not use TT signals. But assuming the integrated DCC decoder that is included in the new SS range offers the same functionality as the current DCC decoder integrated in the current DS range. Then I see no reason why not. Ray and PJ_Model_Trains are the people this question would have been better to aim at.

[St1ngr4y]

Having only the TrainTech brochure to go by, here are my initial thoughts. The track sensor, as far as I can tell, appears to be electro-mechanical as opposed to electronic. By that I mean it will "sense" something passing it, and send some sort of electrical signal down the wire (but NOT a DCC signal). For that reason, I would suggest that these sensor signals are more suited to provide an element of automation to DC layouts, rather than DCC layouts. 

So a train goes past a sensor at a signal. Presumably that signal changes to red. But what happens to the other signals, as PJ calls them, "back down the line". Assuming all are 4-aspect signals, does this same sensor trigger those signals changing to Y, YY, G respectively. If so, then this is wrong, because it is the passage of the LAST vehicle on the train which triggers that.

With all of those wheels of a train passing a sensor, how does the sensor know that this is only one event, and therefore not send multiple signals down the wire - or does it?

Also, any automatic changing of other signals and points by the sensor, would put those items "out-of-sync" with the RM layout diagram.

My assumptions here may be entirely wrong, but I won't be buying any signals with sensors until I know exactly how they work.

Ray

[RB51]

What if you have more than 4 signals in your running loop? R-

[RB51]

Interesting - could you tell how the sensors detected the train, and to answer Ray's question why does it not detect the following carrriages/wagons? R-

[RB51]

Thanks HFM. I guess we'll have to wait for someone to get them and fill in the gaps. R-

[PJ_model_trains]

A couple of things come to mind at this stage...

 

1 - unless we see the data sheets it would be assumed the signal is changed to red when it detects movement of a passing train/loco. Whether it will detect the last carriage is doubted I think, last carriage means no movement to detect but the same applies to a stopped train for what ever reason.

 

2 - I would assume back down the line signal changes are done by software, e.g. RM. So unless RM can say change another signal based on the fact the one passed has changed it is doubtful at this stage. Assuming it is as mentioned, software driven. TT signals tend to do the job they are designed for, the initail ones change signals, the SS ones change signals and detect movement and change signal, nothing more.

 

3 - Probably the best option is email HRMS I think, but...

 

But HRMS answer at this time will possibly be that it is a new item from TT is just launched. Maybe it would be best to wait until we have data sheets to know more about the signals and than contact HRMS.

 

Just my thoughts at this time.

[Chrissaf]

This following sentence is an extract from the mail I had from Train tech this morning in answer to a query I sent them on Saturday.

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These are now entering production for delivery in December and the instructions will be published online once they are released.

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If released on schedule, then the data sheets and installation guides should be published sometime during December.

[96RAF]

All this single wire connection for auto train following signals

and occupancy detection

and mimic panel indication

- sounds too good to be true.

[Chrissaf]

The full TrainTech PDF can be downloaded here. Page 11 has information on the mimic panel products that integrate with the SS signals.

[BigNoj]

It would be a great boost for Hornby if they announced that it would be supported by Railmaster and could be incorporated into LD. 

It makes their old R406 signal a bit outdated. 

[RB51]

AFAIK the SS signal type has no DCC decoder or, therefore, address so will operate as a stand alone system. The system can be used alongside a DC or DCC based control system but has no electronic connection with either. Loco detection and signal triggers are completely self-contained.

 

LD via RM is more suited to the original DS signal type.

 

R-

[Chrissaf]

Sorry Roger, don't mean or like to contradict, but the Train Tech SS signal does have an integrated DCC decoder. Go back to page 1 of this thread and look at the second posted image (page 4 of the TT PDF).

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Relevant text section pasted below:

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In particular, note the three text phrases in the extract ".....or DCC control" followed by "........controlled by DCC" and "..........giving them the same address".  These three phrases indicate that the TT SS signal has an integrated DCC decoder. Particularly the "giving same address" phrase.

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How the integrated DCC decoder interacts with the interlock control wire used by the SS range will be subject to seeing the more detailed installation guide when it gets published.

[RB51]

@ Chrissaf

 

Not a problem - I had read that text to mean that the signals operated via DCC within thier own control system and seperately from Railmaster. It seems obvious, and logical given Train Tech's work with HRMS, PJ and Ray, that this new system should be capable of instruction via RM.

 

R-

[Chrissaf]

Had a further mail this morning from Train Tech in response to my request for more information on the sensor used in the SS range. This is taken from the reply I received.

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The sensor is infrared but between sleepers up to the rail and is 99% at picking up trains in our tests, though even if it misses the first bogie axle it always picks up a subsequent one.  You do not need to paint undersides or add reflective coating etc - the sensor is active and sets its own thresholds based on ambient light etc.

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[Chrissaf]

Had a very prompt reply back from Train Tech this morning in response to a further question I asked them about DCC compatibility with their previous DS range, and thus their ability to be controlled with RailMaster (I specifically mentioned RailMaster compatibility in my question to them). This was Train Tech's reply.

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Our new SS signals do indeed contain a DCC decoder and can be controlled in exactly the same way as our DS range. The advantage being that if you set a signal to Red using DCC, the other SS signals connected to this one will also react and change to the correct colour i.e. Yellow ‘caution’ etc.

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[Chrissaf]

Just had this further reply from Train Tech, modifying their previous reply to my question. The SS does have a DCC decoder integrated within it, but the full range of DCC control provided by RailMaster is not the same as that provided by the previous DS range.

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Sorry we should clarify that the DCC control selects to put the signal to Red or back to automatic, so although there is DCC control, it does not offer full light control as the DS range i.e. on a 4 aspect set to Double Yellow etc.

 

Its a small difference but worth mentioning.

 

Sorry for confusion.

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[PJ_model_trains]

the falling edge of the switch will see the last carriage 

no software involved ,works on dc or dcc 

 

The signal has a sensor in the base near the track edge where the two fingers slot into the track. The signal will sense the train agreed, but what I was referring to was changing signals back down the line not just the one signal Stop or Go subject to aspect shown. Changed by our pre-programming in RM software, we would need to process the signals in the previous blocks (simulated blocks gaps between signals). 

 

Forget Back down the line signals for a minute.

If the sensor changes a signal Red as a Loco/train starts to pass that is fine, but if it changes it Green after the last carriage that is not correct and is a risk.

 

The loco would pass signal 5, the sensor picks this up and turns signal 5, Red, [protecting the Block ahead of the signal the front of the train has moved into.]

 

The previous block, which the train carriages must be protected by the previous Red signal.

 

The last carriage therefore shouldn't change a signal Yellow or Green or it is making the block in front of the signal accessable. A Red signal must protect a block with any part of a train/carriage in it.

 

_S-6__Loco_Signal-5_carriages,carriages__S-4_______S-3_______S-2__<<<

 

Signal 5 changes to Red as sensor picks up a moving loco (any loco unlike LD which will know which loco)

 

Signal 4 remains Red until all of the train has passed Signal 5, making the block between Signal 4 and 5 clear.

 

Subject to signals used,

2 aspects would turn Signal 4 Green when the end of train as cleared Signal 5

 

3 aspects would turn Signal 4 Yellow when the end of train as cleared Signal 5 [signal 3 to Green]

 

4 aspects would turn Signal 4 Yellow when the end of train as cleared Signal 5 [signal 3 to Y/Y and Signal 2 to Y] - if there was another Block Signal 1 would change to Green]

 

LD when it comes will allow us to program 'so that we know which loco has passed a signal sensor', which signal it was, and with pre-programed instructions we can tell previous signals what aspects to show.

 

My above comments on Train-Tech SS signals is based on the assumption, loco is detected, change signal-x it has passed to Red, last carriage passed said signal turn it to Yellow or Green. May be the mimic panel will allow a time delay to allow the rest of the train to clear the block ahead. I will wait and see what the data sheets say, unless others can confirm that a last carriage doesn't change a signal Green, basically saying the block ahead is clear, when in actual fact it is occupied.

 

Comments welcome guys.