TrainTech new signalling product launch

[96RAF]

I will be going to the Great Eastern DCC open day tomorrow (Friday) in Norwich, which will be attended by Train Tech so if anyone has any directed questions about their kit I will be happy to ask them for you.

Rob

[RB51]

Can you find out what the detection system is Rob, and where it is located? As stated earlier there is no indication on the diagram in their PDF. R-

[Chrissaf]

Perhaps the answer to PJ's question about, "When does the triggered signal instruct the downstream signal to change state. On FIRST detection of a wheel, or AFTER all the train has passed the sensor and completely cleared the preceding block?"

.

The mimic LED indicators have two colours Red & Green. What happens with the mimic panel indicators when the signal is at yellow?

[Chrissaf]

My point is that on the mimic (looking at the TT PDF) there is only space for two LEDs. How does this work with a three and four aspect signal. If I want to mimic those, then I would need a mimic panel with 3 or 4 LED positions.

.

So on that basis I reiterate. if Red and Green LEDs are fitted, to mimic the signal Red and Green status...what happens when the signal goes Yellow?

[Flashbang]

My point is that on the mimic (looking at the TT PDF) there is only space for two LEDs. How does this work with a three and four aspect signal. If I want to mimic those, then I would need a mimic panel with 3 or 4 LED positions.

.

So on that basis I reiterate. if Red and Green LEDs are fitted, to mimic the signal Red and Green status...what happens when the signal goes Yellow?

UK NX panels normally only show a Red or Green indication for any signal. Red indication shows for a red aspect displayed on the actual signal, while a green indication is shown for any proceed aspects on on the real signal. So the TT signalling indications are somewhat correct.

IECC boxes show the true aspect as an indication.

[PJ_model_trains]

Perhaps the answer to PJ's question about, "When does the triggered signal instruct the downstream signal to change state. On FIRST detection of a wheel, or AFTER all the train has passed the sensor and completely cleared the preceding block?"

.

The mimic LED indicators have two colours Red & Green. What happens with the mimic panel indicators when the signal is at yellow?

 

Hi Chrissaf

 

For the mimic green would equal green, yellow, double yellow or even the flashing of any of them.

 

The question regarding the sensors working and back down the line signalling that come to mind at the moment are...

 

• Does the sensor constantly scan for detection, e.g. every time an axle passes and cuts the beam, until the last carriage axle (or a train or even system stop)?
• What happens if the train stops with an axle directly over a sensor? Sod's Law, or Murhy's Law!
• How does the sensor software active back down the line signal changes (after first detection or after last detection). 
• Is 4 the maximum number that can be linked together, it is probably more than enough, the question is based on controller is up to 4 signals controlled?
• Taking a controller of up to 4 signals, what happens if only three are used in a block, can the other be included with signals connected to another controller?

 

the questions are, looking for answers from the manufacturer, not assuming anything. 

 

If the signals down the line change before a last carriage has passed the signal that detected the first axle, leaving carriages still in the previous block then this is an issue as the block the train is coming from must be clear before the red signal changes. The red signal is to protect a block, gap between to signals for what eveer reason, a train oor part train in it, or even a falling tree (or biscuit  😉 joking).

 

Hope that helps.

[PJ_model_trains]

Point-1  ---  I would assume this to be the case.

 

Point-2  ---  Is based on the train stopping without the controller doing so. Hence the term it would be... Sod's Law or Murphy's Law

 

Point -3  ---  badly worded, my thoughts were based on what is programmed into the chip. That was what I was meaning by 'Sensor software'. Sorry if misleading.

 

I did say, ask the manufacturer to confirm, not assuming anything.

[RB51]

Hopefully when RAF96 gets to the show tomorrow he will, if able to fight his way forward to the front of the masses, find out a little more about this system. Just to be clear though PJ, there is no linked controlling software associated with these signals. If you as operator don't stop the train it will continue to run until some other event acts upon it (power cut, collision, cat sits on it etc.). R-

[PJ_model_trains]

Hopefully when RAF96 gets to the show tomorrow he will, if able to fight his way forward to the front of the masses, find out a little more about this system. Just to be clear though PJ, there is no linked controlling software associated with these signals. If you as operator don't stop the train it will continue to run until some other event acts upon it (power cut, collision, cat sits on it etc.). R-

 

As mentioned earlier, possibly badly worded. I was referring to the pre-programming of the chip already in the signal. Built in programming to signal itself and Quad controller.

 

I am aware it is just basically a signal with sensor. That is all I am referring to, except as stated, a train under our control passing over the sensor, which side of the signal the train is, and what happens if the train stops, by our command or a system error, and what happens if by Sod's Law the train stops with an axle directly over the sensor.

 

Nothing any more comlicated than that.

[RB51]

I think I understood you perfectly PJ. R-

[PJ_model_trains]

Brilliant  😆

[Howbi]

@PJ.............the sensors are not under the axles, they are beside then track, mounted onto the base that forms the two prongs which slide into the track...........they are probably IR sensors similar to the RPR220 type which comprises an Emitter & Receiver........see my photo on page 5 this thread........they are positioned to either look upwards to the underside of vehicles as my photos demonstrate or they look just across the top of the rail and reflect each wheel as it passes.........these photos show sensor looking horizontally and is activated by the first wheel.......good, huh?.......HB......... 😆

/media/tinymce_upload/2914ec370f6e94a13e4789353b922d4d.jpg

wheel not reached sensor yet...........

/media/tinymce_upload/91bc949d99d325099943eb5b858b4c1f.jpg

LED on as wheel activates sensor.........I guess that as all the vehicle wheels keep reflecting to the sensor within milliseconds the circuitry to the Signals stays live until the last wheel has passed when the sensor will de-activate.........HB

[Fishmanoz]

Brilliant HB too, that's 2000 words of posts you've saved.

[Howbi]

Thanks, Fishy.........all donations gratefully accepted......... 😆.........HB

[2e0dtoeric]

@RAF - I'd like to know if this TT system can cope with bi-directional running, or will it just get it's lingerie in a knot?

Obviously I'd need two sets, one facing each way!

[96RAF]

I shall ask 2eric, but looking at the schematic on page 1 this thread I reckon if you connected the upstream next signal wire to the downstream terminal and so on it would work the other way, apart,from the signal would be facing the wrong way.

But to get it truly directional you would need a set of changeover switches and a servo on each signal to switch the lamps round depending upon which way the loco was coming from.

[PJ_model_trains]

@HB

I didn't say the sensor was actually 'under the axle'!

 

It is pretty clear from the TT SS signal shown in the TT brochure that the sensor is near the base of the signal, at the ends of the fingers.

 

If we need be more precise, the sensor beam is broken when a train or carriage passes over the sensor, the bean being broken by the edge of a loco or carriage, over hanging the track, being slightly wider than the track.

[PJ_model_trains]

I'd like to know if this TT system can cope with bi-directional running, or will it just get it's lingerie in a knot?

Obviously I'd need two sets, one facing each way!

 

@2e0

Bi-direction would not be an issue.

 

The TT signals are designed to slot into the left hand side of the track. 

 

[96RAF]

This morning I spoke to David of DCPexpress about the new Train-Tech signalling system and it is so simple you wouldn't believe it.

 

David is happy to join the forum and answer your questions. All data including videos will will be posted on their website www.dcpexpress.com 

 

A signal or signals can be stand alone around the track and will react to passing stock in either direction to put a signal to red. This will time out to yellow(s) then green according to which signal you have.

 

When wired signal to signal as shown in the earlier schematic the logic is again bi-directional but now a signal will wait for stock to pass the next signal before aspects are changed, rather than time out as before.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/39f8a178f0c1f565ef999c0cfaa2ce56.JPG

 

The signals can be used on DC or DCC track, clipped directly to the track or remote wired by snapping off the slide in legs and wiring to solder pads.

 

Feathers are five SMD leds in a left or right housing which simply clips to the top of whichever aspect signal you choose.

 

Theatre indicators similarly clip,on but here is a single backlight behind the numbers mask. This mask is simply a matrix of blanked holes which you push out to form the number of choice. If you want to change the number it is a mechanical process of blocking open holes and opening others. Due to its simplicity there is no electronic number changing facility.

 

DCC learning is achieved by shorting two pads on the signal base which flashes the signal until a controller selection is made.

 

The detection system is adaptive IR which will compensate for changes in ambient light levels. The demo track was under harsh shop ligting with fluctuating shadows from the passing crowd. The two black SMDs near the rail on the lower slide in leg are the detectors. The three vertical holes are the signal to signal wire connectors. The two holes near the signal base are the remote wiring pads.

The detectors persist all the while the IR is being reflected by stock.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/ecd23591dfd1de0924abe6ed0919ea18.JPG

 

The protocol used is DCCexpress own and obviously proprietary. This was developed due to extant protocols not being specified exactly enough for full cross equipment use.

 

Linking signals to other modules or mimic or switch panels is again a one wire system. The leds used for the mimic switches are bi-colour so red and green combined give you yellow at the switch. The other led from memory is for indication of manual or DCC operation and will flash to show cross selections betwixt the two.

 

David tests his products with all current Controllers to fully prove the DCC side.

 

I think I have answered all the questions posed, but if not please remind me.

Rob

[RB51]

Certainly have for me Rob. Thank you and well done. R-

[Chrissaf]

Well done, that should answer most questions, pending TT posting fuller details on their web site. One point of clarity though. Maybe you explained it, and I missed it, but does the signal downstream of the triggered signal stay at Red until the train has completely cleared the block (PJ's question).

[RB51]

When wired signal to signal as shown in the earlier schematic the logic is again bi-directional but now a signal will wait for stock to pass the next signal before aspects are changed, rather than time out as before.

 

I think this is the relevant text Chris - and PJ. R-

[96RAF]

Yes any linked signal will maintain aspect until it is retriggered as the next detector in sequence fires/clears.

if you leave a truck in a linked signal block, even if clear of a sensor then the current aspect again remains until the block clears by dint of that stock moving through.

 

standalone signals though rely on you more as they are a simple timed sequence, adequate for casual use, but not for trapping stalled stock. As the wiring is so simple - a single wire signal to signal- there is unlikely ever to be a row of standalone signals under this scenario.

 

I forgot to mention that clip in IR sensors will be available separately for use say to activate level crossings, etc.

[52train]

I also would like to thank you, I think I know the answer but will these new signals work with RailMaster.

[RB51]

Hi 52T, do Chris's 2nd and 3rd posts on page 4 of this thread answer your query? R-