TrainTech new signalling product launch

[Chrissaf]

This question had already been answered on previous page 4 of this thread. To reiterate those answers and add detail gleaned from other reply pages.

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RailMaster can send a DCC command to override the SS signal into 'Danger' (Red), and send another DCC command to restore the SS signal to 'automatic' working.

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What Railmaster can't do with the SS signal is:

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• Set the SS signal to yellow(s)
• Reflect the change of state of the SS signal when in automatic mode back on the RM track plan. i.e there is no synchronisation between what the SS signals are displaying on the track compared to what the signal is showing on the RM track plan.

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This could limit their ability / flexibility to be incorporated into RM loco movement programs.

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If you want the higher level of interaction between the signal and the RM track plan, then you need to use the TT DS signal.

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However, my understanding (I may be wrong) is that to get the full potential out of the TT DS range used with RM, you need Hornby to launch Loco Detection (LD). My understanding is that the TT DS signals do not automatically react (without LD) to the presence of a train as the TT DS signals do not have an integrated track sensor built into them.

[52train]

Sorry senior moment I did read them all but I forgot sorry again.

[96RAF]

Correct - essentially mimicking the signals manual override switch facility.

At present there is no protocol interface between the signal electronics and RM other than a straight DCC command.

[2e0dtoeric]

Thanks, PJ, that partially answers my question - but what happens to the chain of signals that are facing 'right way' when a train runs past them 'wrong way' - is what I was after! Do they then have a panic attack because their simple logic is not capable of responding?

I'll have a study of the   http://www.dcpexpress.com/traintech-sensor-signals-c-52_77.html   page, and see if that answers my question. I see there is a you-tube link on there as well.

[RB51]

If I understand Rob's feedback correctly the signals will detect the direction of travel and will change in the new (now wrong) downstream order but as the signal heads are facing the wrong way they will be meaningless for traffic going the wrong way. R-

[2e0dtoeric]

😉

[96RAF]

I was stood at one end and the truck was sent along the way and then sent back to,me and the signals reflected what was happening block to block as it travelled. The directional logic is dictated at each sensor so direction is meaningless.

 

As a sensor is tripped its own light goes red, when the next sensor is tripped in either direction that sensors light goes red and the previous one goes yellow or green depending on signal type. And so on.

 

The fact the signals are facing in one direction means little except to a driver coming the other way who cant see anything. In your ideal two way world the signals would have lights facing both ways. Maybe TT will make you some at extra cost.

 

something I forgot to mention - you can link as few (minimum 2) or as many signals as you like together as there is no controller  to limit this. The only link between each signals logic and an adjacent signal is a single wire. You can go right round the loop.

[PJ_model_trains]

I was stood at one end and the truck was sent along the way and then sent back to,me and the signals reflected what was happening block to block as it travelled. The directional logic is dictated at each sensor so direction is meaningless.

 

As a sensor is tripped its own light goes red, when the next sensor is tripped in either direction that sensors light goes red and the previous one goes yellow or green depending on signal type. And so on.

 

The fact the signals are facing in one direction means little except to a driver coming the other way who cant see anything. In your ideal two way world the signals would have lights facing both ways. Maybe TT will make you some at extra cost.

 

something I forgot to mention - you can link as few (minimum 2) or as many signals as you like together as there is no controller  to limit this. The only link between each signals logic and an adjacent signal is a single wire. You can go right round the loop.

 

I have bi-directional travel on my layout, I have signals on both sides of the track to cover direction of travel as seen by the engine driver. (Signals always on the left). This I feel is the right way as we are the engine drivers and should look at direction of travel accordingly.

 

2e0's point is a good one, and the reason I want to wait for LD (at this time anyway). With LD we would change signals (by pre-programmed instructions) not just for the direction of travel but also to protect blocks for anything coming in the opposite direction which could effectively enter a Block that is occupied. LD will stop this immediately with the on Red - Stop instruction (providing we have pre-programmed correctly - but to me that is all part of the running of my trains).

 

TT have a good team who think out well what they want to achieve, and create items with simplicity of operation, full credit to them. They have certainly jumped forward here I think, narrowed the gap to LD, for me LD will give me the control I want, a more hands on programmed approach, having said that, the TT system is going to suit a lot of people.

 

We only purchase signals once, unless there is a replacement needed, once a customer decides to purchase another product, as the TT SS signal/sensor system, Hornby have lost potential customers. Lets up they review the situation and up things a gear or two. 

 

[RB51]

Nicely put PJ. I think that is precisely the situation that many folk will be in if they have already purchased the DS version of signals. I only have 2, I believe you have many more than that? R-

[96RAF]

@pj

At present the TT system is purely reactive indication of passing traffic but the links back to a mimic panel or the separate sensor activating a crossing could possibly be developed to provide real block protection by way of command to a loco to stop but that I feel is a ways off at present.

 

The detection is there but it is blind and as far as I can see unable to issue commands to traffic.

[PJ_model_trains]

I was stood at one end and the truck was sent along the way and then sent back to,me and the signals reflected what was happening block to block as it travelled. The directional logic is dictated at each sensor so direction is meaningless.

 

I have a concern here, based on the back down the line sequence of signals and the comment above.

 

Signals should be on the left of the track as seen by the engine driver, so they need to be on both sides of the track for bi-directional travel or the engine drive cannot see the signals coming the other way.  So far so good.

 

If a train is moving from right to left, (as we view in this example) the sensor detects the break in the beam and turns the adjacent signal red (left of track). It will also if I understand what you say correctly, change a signal on the opposite side to red also. Not an issue regarding functionality, not yet.

 

As the train moves right to left and the last carriages clears the initial block, back down the line signals (on the left of the track) change according to number of aspects of the signals installed, or connected together. But what happens to the signals on the other side of the track? 'The Blocks are in reverse' so the Red on the opposite side is not protection the occupied Block but a vacant Block!!!

 

I will try a basic example without using images that take time to make and have listed.

 

Here we have a single track, signals each side, on left as engine driver sees them.

 

     S11>                     S12>                     S13>                      S14>

======================================================<<<<< Train

   

 

Consider if signals both side of track change as a train travels <<<<<

 

We have to assume a train has previously travelled Left to Right >>>>> so the signals would be...

 

S11 G – S12 YY – S13 Y - S14 Red >>>>>

 

Our loco passes Signal/Sensor2 (S2) and changes S2 Red, protection Block S3 to S2  (S2 to S1 is already protected)

 

S13> will also change Red (S14 is Red from when train passed S1)

 

Question - is S12 still YY and S11 G, or if changed is it S12 YY - S11 Y?

 

Either way if we accidentally brought another train the other way there is, No Red Signal to stop the train, the block is not protected on the other side... CRASH!

 

The only way I see this working, with the TT SS system, is for the signals on each side to be separate.

The ones on one side linked together, the ones on the other side linked together, but both sides independent, which means only changing signals for the direction of travel of the current train, leaving the other side unchanged. Ermmm.

 

Unless of course someone can see a way round this.

 

[PJ_model_trains]

Nicely put PJ. I think that is precisely the situation that many folk will be in if they have already purchased the DS version of signals. I only have 2, I believe you have many more than that? R-

 

I think 30 working signals

12 with feather route indicators,

plus 6-8 dummy signals

including 2 shunt floor based signals

Maybe I should count them sometime!

 

 

[96RAF]

@pj

I appreciate your concerns about the proper protection by lights for a single line two way traffic scenario, but the question I was asked to ask was - are the lights bi-directional. answer Yes. You can approach them from either direction and they work as advertised.

In a real scenario a single track would be protected by say token or signal interlocking at the far end of section to prevent an errant train entering the single way. This is simple signal lights for a follow me track event, not protection against oncoming traffic.

 

edit: your argument confuses me (S1, 2, etc) as the left to right train will be seeing green lights ahead until it approaches a block occupied by the right to left train which will also be seeing green lights ahead. By then it will be too late, as it would be and has been in real life. Any train entering a block will make a red light as it passes the signal - too late already if there is oncoming traffic.

[PJ_model_trains]

@pj

At present the TT system is purely reactive indication of passing traffic but the links back to a mimic panel or the separate sensor activating a crossing could possibly be developed to provide real block protection by way of command to a loco to stop but that I feel is a ways off at present.

 

The detection is there but it is blind and as far as I can see unable to issue commands to traffic.

 

The TT SS system is a stand alone system, well thought out though.

 

It can only change signals subject to the sensor detections from what I read.

 

It will suit a lot of people I am sure, subject to how much a person has to spend or wants to spend, but although a leap forward in technology it cannot do what LD will do, when LD comes that is. 

 

Another thought as mentioned a day or so back is, whether it could control power to sidings, again this may not suit everyone, it wouldn't suit me as I like sound and lights and any power cut would kill them dead. But as hidden sidings where a person may not be concerned about sound or lights, but instead want to stop a loco in the same position every time may be feasible. Can the system control power to blocks of track I haven't read all the details yet?

[PJ_model_trains]

@pj

I appreciate your concerns about the proper protection by lights for a single line two way traffic scenario, but the question I was asked to ask was - are the lights bi-directional. answer Yes. 

In a real scenario a single track would be protected by say token or signal interlocking at the far end of section to prevent an errant train entering the single way. This is simple signal lights for a follow me track event, not protection against oncoming traffic.

 

It was not a critisism, just following through on current discussions, first considered direction of travel, then consideration was given to traffic coming the other way, and a double headed signal on one side I think was mentioned. Once confirmed signals should be either side, as seen by the engine drivere, the conversation moved to the signal changing for both sides. Naturally once discussed one has to consider is this workable and feasible. hence the consideration and post above.

[96RAF]

The new brochure is downloadable from here http://ccgi.dcpmicro.plus.com/traintech/pdf_manuals/traintech_brochure.pdf

Have a good read and you will be as wise as me.

[PJ_model_trains]

Not possble RAF96, I am just an humble, retired, model train enthusiast.

 

We all try share ideas, but also try think and discuss how things work, where problems could occur, or if an item can or maybe cannot function as one might hope.  😎

[96RAF]

Not possble RAF96, I am just an humble, retired, model train enthusiast.

 

We all try share ideas, but also try think and discuss how things work, where problems could occur, or if an item can or maybe cannot function as one might hope.  😎

 

In that case PJ I can only suggest you await the arrival of TT's David upon the forums to respond directly to your wishes.

Rob

[96RAF]

Link made live thanks to temporary transition from iPad to laptop.

http://ccgi.dcpmicro.plus.com/traintech/pdf_manuals/traintech_brochure.pdf

[PJ_model_trains]

Not possble RAF96, I am just an humble, retired, model train enthusiast.

 

We all try share ideas, but also try think and discuss how things work, where problems could occur, or if an item can or maybe cannot function as one might hope.  😎

 

In that case PJ I can only suggest you await the arrival of TT's David upon the forums to respond directly to your wishes.

Rob

 

Not my wishes RAF

It is a discussion forum is it not?

I have followed on with the  discussion with others as it has evolved.....

[Slornie]

RAF96 said:

 

Yes any linked signal will maintain aspect until it is retriggered as the next detector in sequence fires/clears.

if you leave a truck in a linked signal block, even if clear of a sensor then the current aspect again remains until the block clears by dint of that stock moving through.

 

standalone signals though rely on you more as they are a simple timed sequence, adequate for casual use, but not for trapping stalled stock. As the wiring is so simple - a single wire signal to signal- there is unlikely ever to be a row of standalone signals under this scenario.

 

I forgot to mention that clip in IR sensors will be available separately for use say to activate level crossings, etc.

 

The brochure says that the standalone track sensors can also be linked via "network link" to other Sensor Signals.  In the case of a standalone signal you could presumably connect it to a track sensor placed a suitable distance along the track to enable the "train must clear block/section" functionality which would override the default timer function.

 

Chrissaf said:

 

What Railmaster can't do with the SS signal is:

 

• Reflect the change of state of the SS signal when in automatic mode back on the RM track plan. i.e there is no synchronisation between what the SS signals are displaying on the track compared to what the signal is showing on the RM track plan.

 

If in future LCC (which was discussed elsewhere on this forum a few months back) becomes commonplace it might be adopted by Train-Tech and Hornby/RailMaster.  In that eventuality the TT signals could communicate their status back to RM via LCC's two-way protocol.  Or, once LD has been released by Hornby, TT may be able to develop another mimic-like module for their system which functions in a similar manner to Hornby's LD sensors.

 

PJ said:

 

As the train moves right to left and the last carriages clears the initial block, back down the line signals (on the left of the track) change according to number of aspects of the signals installed, or connected together. But what happens to the signals on the other side of the track? 'The Blocks are in reverse' so the Red on the opposite side is not protection the occupied Block but a vacant Block!!!

 

This is where the human in the signal box (or layout operator) comes in!  Once the train traversing the bi-directional section has left the signaller can manually reset the signals to the correct aspect.  😆

[96RAF]

 

[snip]

 

@Slornie

Too many questions --- but the network link you refer to is a single length of wire joining signal to signal or remote sensor or mimic panel or switch or acc decoder or ...

The TT logic is extremely simple and local. It sends a trigger from A to make B react, and maybe also C,D, E. It does not at present initiate further hard action, maybe that will come - Ask David of TT when he gets here.

LCC - lots of initial noise but little I see in the way of follow up action that has led to a specification for others to adopt.

[PJ_model_trains]

@RAF

I have nothing else to add at this time, but as comments come in from others if I feel there is something to consider or discuss I will as I feel, as I always have, share my thoughts. If I don't I won't, nothing on my part has changed.

 

[96RAF]

@RAF

I have nothing else to add at this time, but as comments come in from others if I feel there is something to consider or discuss I will as I feel, as I always have, share my thoughts. If I don't I won't, nothing on my part has changed.

 

Absolutely as I would expect PJ.

The forum is yours as and when you g=feel the need.

Rob

[PJ_model_trains]

It is very kind of you RAF, I thank you for permission.

I have never needed permission before???  END!