A plea for better paint

[Heather Kavanagh]

Season's greetings, fellow modellers! Apologies if this might seem to be in the wrong forum, but I think it's a topic for general discussion rather than a tip or technique to do with Humbrol products.

 

As is traditional for many modellers this time of year, I've been trying to complete a model or two. I have been documenting my slow progress on the Dornier 17 in the Aircraft forum, and I've reached a painting stage - and I'm getting a bit fed up. Updates there may appear in the new year, since Admin is probably taking a well-earned break and not in a position to approve image-laden posts.

 

When my modelling habit started out all those decades ago, tinlets of paint were of a consistent quality. You'd make a list of the required colours you might need to finish your model, troop to your local model shop and buy the tinlets of enamel paint. Back home, you'd carefully lever the lid off a tinlet, after having given it a really good shaking, stir it with the handle of an old brush, and cheerfully slap it on your latest pride and joy. You knew you'd get a good coat on in one session, you knew it would take a day or so to dry enough to let you paint further details or a camouflage pattern, but my point is you knew where you were with the stuff. Every tinlet that came from Hull was of a consistent quality. Every. Single. One.

 

Jump to the end of 2016, and I have a collection of Humbrol enamel tinlets, old and new. I'm afraid I can't get used to acrylics, though I am learning. Anyway, I open a new tinlet of enamel with fear and trepidation. A judicious session of shaking the tinlet has been ominously silent, and sure enough the contents are as thick as non-drip emulsion. I know brushing this gloop will be a pointless exercise, but I try anyway, after a vigorous session of stirring.

 

A coat as thin as cold tea gets applied. It's patchy, and where I've passed the brush across more than once, it's come off the primed surface. It won't even adhere to an unprimed surface. Leaving the model somewhere warm to dry, I return next day and it's still tacky, and comes off if I run a finger over it. One very unhappy modeller.

 

Once again, a lovely model is about to be virtually ruined by painting it. I despair, frankly. May I make a plea, therefore, that someone at Hornsby should please take Humbrol by the scruff of the neck and make them produce tinlets of enamel paints like they used to thirty years ago? Paints that once shaken and stirred have the consistency of pouring cream. Paints that give a good coverage when applied by brush with no more than two coats. 

 

Do you think that might be possible? Dare I dream?

[peebeep]

I think you might find the Humbrol acrylic range eminently more brushable than the enamels, which have been variable in quality for some time, whereas the acrylics seem to be much more predictable. You do have to work quickly with them, or trip to your nearest art shop and get some flow enhancer/retarder. There's actually lots of alternatives to Humbrol these days and although most of them are airbrush rather than bristle brush orientated you might find it worhwhile trying out some of the other brands that are available.

[peebeep]

.

[Heather Kavanagh]

I think you might find the Humbrol acrylic range eminently more brushable than the enamels, which have been variable in quality for some time, whereas the acrylics seem to be much more predictable. 

 

I suppose I will have to persevere and learn acrylic techniques. I am such a dyed-in-the-wool enameller, though. I understand the medium, know how to work it, and was always happy with the results. I have used Hannants' Xtracrylix, and found them usable. Where I did have an issue was masking. The low-tack tape took most of a coat of paint off with it, which wasn't very encouraging. I ended up brush painting to recover.

 

My airbrush booth is not set up for plastic modelling, more for large scale model railway stuff. I plan to get a new airbrush and smaller compressor in the new year, so I may be able to practice my technique in more comfort. I might buy in some cheap kits to learn on.

 

I am resolved that I will have to airbrush the Dornier, but the thought of masking the undersurfaces, then the camo  pattern, leaves me cold. Bristle brushing that lot used to be a relaxing pastime for me. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, not an insufferable chore! I get enough of that in my day job! 

[Ratch]

 Hi Heather, I switched from enamels a few years ago, mainly because my wife complained (frequently) about the smell - especially when I airbrushed. I doubt whether any paint is of the same formula as twenty or thirty years ago  mainly because of Health & Safety and those nasty ingredients that might possibly hurt us if ingested.

I often see people complain about the coverage of acrylics, and while this example is by no means frequent in my experience, it does demonstrate that it's not an insurmountable problem. I posted this previously, but as you've raised the subject I'll repost here.

I decided to use Humbrol Acrylic 160 German Camouflage Red Brown for the floorboards of an Airfix Brake Van and had this happen...

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL761/13303934/24749108/413007336.jpg

Disregard the white and maroon, they'll do for what I want.

I often hear folks cry that their paint won't adhere to the plastic, that the paint is expelled by the plastic. That's exactly what appears to be happening here, But DON'T PANIC  With quick drying acrylic paints it takes just a few coats to cover.

Second coat

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL761/13303934/24749108/413007337.jpg

Not quite right yet, but an improvement.

Third coat.

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL761/13303934/24749108/413007338.jpg

Much better coverage and adequate for my purposes, others may require further coats (suitably thinned perhaps).

[ironsides]

Well I haven't used enamels for decades mostly because I find Acryllics more user friendly, this doesn't mean that their perfect but you adapt in time, two thinned coats is often better for a smooth finish when brushing (I dont spray and I dont think its something I would want to do either) and I almost never use it neat and unthinned.. that said there are other brands of Enamels about but I have no experience with them..

These days it seems we need to be protected from ourselves for some reason apparantly... sheesh .-)

 

Happy modelling and a pleasant New Year

[peebeep]

Heather, for a happy airbrushing experience I would recommend Tamiya or GSI Mr Color. Both are spirit based acrylic that work beautifully if thinned with cellulose or Mr Color Levelling Thinner. I've heard lots of good things about Mr Paint, but not tried it yet.

[Kenneth ONeill]

I live in the Western Isles of Scotland, and am fine with acrylics in Winter, but in Summer they dry too fast, by which I mean that I can't keep a wet line moving across anything larger than a 1/72 scale WW2 single engine fighter!

Having, say, the port wingtip touch dry before I reach the starboard is useful, unless the drying is so fast that both roots are dry before I reach the starboard tip,and I just can't think of a way of keeping my wet lines whilst I do the engine cowl and rear fuselage.

[Braille Dave]

The problem with Humbrol as far as I can tell is that the original factory in china closed, the new chinese factory had issues with quality control and so Humbrol is now starting to be produced by Rustins, in the UK. Rustins is very well regarded amongst woodworkers for their finishes, so hopefully there will be an improvement over time.

 

The '...over time' is the thing. Until the inconsistent stuff is sold through, which may take some time (I recently bought as new a tinlet within 'Borden UK' on it). I suspect we'll just have to put up with it. 

[John Symmons]

I've mentioned this before but may-be it's worth repeating. In SA Humbrol is now almost a No-No as far as paints goes as most shops in Cape Town refuse to stock them especially the acrylic, the enamels are still available some-times but are usually old stock. These only sell to modellers who don;t know any better, or who have no alternative for that colour. I've brought a few Humbrol enamels and had to immediately thin them down and basically re-mill them with ball-bearings in the tin before there're usable, often with mixed results. Personally I've given up on buying new Humbrol paints, like most other modeller in SA, but I'll continue using those I have if I've no alterbative.

It really seems a pity that one of the old main-stays of modelling has come to such a condition, I've even seen Humbrol paints in the bargin bins at non-modelling shops and craft and artist shops as they're unable to sell them through too many come-backs. Fortunately we now have many competing brands of paint that we're now spoilt for choice. I now use Tamyia and Vallejo as these give me reasonably consistent quality and availablity.

I always thought the Humbrol Authentic range in the 60's and 70"s were a good idea and was sorry to find it was discontinued, this force me to try other brands, and learn new ways of dealing with their idiosyncrasies.

It seems the Humbrol is mainly hanging in there as the prefered brand for Airfix. Come-on Humbrol you can do better, hopefully your new supplier will be able to sort your often suspect quality.

Remember we do this for fun                      John the Pom

[DavidJC]

Odd you should say that, John the Pom. I was talking to a shopkeeper just before Christmas and he hates stocking Humbrol paints, but as he caters for a huge variety of modeller, he feels he has to. Generally the purchasers are the grandparents looking for a kit and paint as a present for grandchild and can't disassociate themselves from those brands despite him trying to steer them towards other makes. 'Airfix kit Humbrol paint'; not unlike the late 70s when people would absolutely refuse to accept Lima would or could run with Hornby trains.

 

You can tell actually. The Humbrol rack is coated in dust as are the pots of paint in it!

 

I've tried using Humbrol acrylics with mixed results, usually less than satisfactory which is a shame because though I do still use enamels on rare occasions, I am a convert to acrylics and other brands have given me a great finish. Where they haven't it's been down to my own cack-handedness.

[Discostu]

Well, the preceding posts aren't encouraging. I have over 100 tinlets of Humbrol enamel, as I used that as a kid when I last modelled. Makes me worried what I might find when I crack open the new ones.Having said that, I've built several kits since returning to the hobby and have only had one, 27 dark sea grey, that was gloopy and couldn't be saved by thinning , the rest performed well , and my last build, the 1/48 mk xii Spitfire came out nicely.  I know there are other brands out there, and most modellers are using acrylics,  but for now I'll stick with what I know. Cheers, Stuart. 

[Ratch]

 I think everyone fosusses on the negatives. There are plenty of positives with Humbrol paints, I much prefer them to Revell. The odd duff tin/pot may take the shine off, but they are far from unusable and just need a modicum of expertise to overcome the little setbacks that sometimes occur. Vallejo may be my preferred brand, but I still buy and use Humbrol paints too (there are some Vallejo that are not quite right).

[Biggyinn]

Having not made the full transition to airbrushing ...I on occasion still use a hairy stick , and i still use enamels for certain things such as undercarrage and props or any small areas....dunno just find it less hassle than using the airbrush , but the consistancy of humbrol is not there as mentioned it'll take a long time for the rubbish stock to get sold off ....no idea how long , no wonder other modelers have changed brands  ...i know i have but still own a conciderable number of humbrol , testors , tamiya , gloy , gunze ect

[Kenneth ONeill]

I see @Biggyinn's point about "sometimes a brush is easier". I remember reading one reviewer's complain about "the difficulty of masking this part for airbrushing". The "offending" part was the RH bar end on a 1/12 scale motorcycle which contained the brake lever, throttle grip and brake fluid reservoir, and therefore needed matt and silk black and silk white paint. I did brushed silk white and matt black in one session, taking maybe 3 minutes and brushed silk black an hour later taking another 4!

[ian_rutland]

Heather, thanks for posting this.  I feel that we are on the same page here, regarding Humbrol paints.

I have been building kits for nearly 60 years and know exactly of the frustrations of using paints that do not adhere well and give a patchy finish that will cause a complete repaint.  Here are a few observations from a long standing hairy stick wielder.  ( I also find them most convenient. )

I always use Humbrol, or Xtracolour enamels.  

The older Humbrol enamels did give great coverage, but could be slightly gritty.  When they introduced Authentic Colours, they hit the perfect blend, and by ensuring that they were sufficiently stirred, they gave a hard and dry finish, over which to apply your camo colours.  Unfortunately, and tragically, the factory was destroyed in a fire.  Suddenly, our range of choice vanished, overnight.  I tried to stock up on my favourite colours, but they were vanishing from the shelves.

The next few years meant using up what I had left.  Just to remind myself how good they were, I sometimes build a subject that sends me looking for one of the old tins, and with careful stirring, it performs as well as remembered.

Next step was to move to the Xtracolour range.  They could be tacky and needed to be thinned carefully.  If done so, they worked very well and didn't need to be varnished before decalling.  This was a good point in their favour.   The colours were very good, too, and covered just about subject known.  The early plastic pots were pretty crap, but Hannants realised the issue and sent me a box of empty tins.  Good customer support, without any red tape: Priceless.

Around this point, I had the luck of buying some Aeromaster colours, also from Hannants, I believe.  These were my first step into the world of acryics.  Due to safety concerns, water based acrylics seemed the way to go.  The best way to use these paints was by applying them over an aerosol applied coat of acrylic grey.  I found Halford's Primer grey the best available.  ( Very close to RAF Dark Sea Grey. BTW.)  This gave the plastic some grip for the paints.  I used this first with Xtracolour and then with Aeromaster.  

Aeromaster and Xtracolour became my paints of choice, and I still do use the latter.  It's consistent and readilly available, though there were some issues over postage.  I'm not sure about these issues at the moment. 

Unfortunately, Aeromaster stopped making their paint, though I'm still in posession of a waning supply of my favourite colours.  Over the primer, you simply painted the first coat onto the model.  I love to use a nice wide and flat Humbrol brush for this. ( Check Humbrol Tools and techniques.  Some interesting stuff on there. ) Two coats of initial colour, followed by two coats of camo colour, and all within minutes!  Leave for an hour, or three and use low tack masking tape.  I use the stuff from Boyes, or Tamiya, though the Boyes shop is about twenty minutes walk, or half an hour in the car, plus parking. :-)

Once applied, you can add the undersurface colour.  You can buff it for a semi gloss finish, or use Johnsons Kleer, or its Humbrol version.  Small warning here:  The Gloss and Semi Gliss bothe work well, again with a flat brush, but the Matt leaves white deposits everywhere, leaving a snow scene effect.

Now, then.  Where are we now?  Base coat Primer.  Done . . . Halfords.  Good enamel . . .  Done.  Xtracolour.  Good acrylics????  Many of them, but they do like to be airbrushed.   Humbrol : New Screw Top Range.  Actually, these are now pretty good and the secret lies in Good Primer and Careful Thinning with Humbrol's own thinners.

Vallejo?  Got loads.  Can be very useful on numerous aplications.  Still not 100% pleased wit their RAF Colours though.  The Dark Green looks a little too 'spinach' to me.  Nice reds and metallics though.  Easy to use, too.  I buy them and then match them to my FS Colour ( Color ) Chips.  This usually finds me the right mix.

I must say that I do like those wargame colours and washes from Citadel.  The Bone White is great and the Whatever Black makes a fine black finish.  Their metallics are also well worth a look.  They adhere well and leave a nice, even finish.

That leaves Miniature Paints, which I used to get from The Signalman at Railway shows.  They are available from Ral Partha now, I believe.  I use a lot of others in my quest for Aeromaster II, but none really come close enough for us avid handpainters.

I've had some more of the newer Humbrol enamels, though they are still a bit up and down.  Revell, I really struggle with.  It dries in seconds before you can work it.

Here's an interesting thing that I saw at a demo : Use Vallejo Airbrush cleaner as a thinner.  It stays fluid longer, but will soon go off.  It's very useful retarder.

One more little observation.  Painting acrylics onto plastic doesn't work.  Plastic is Oil Based and Acrylic is not.  There simply is not the surface tension in the paint to hold it.  Some will actually go on, but look patchy.  Always use a spray primer, Halfords acrylic grey seems to adhere to anything, or even a handpainted grey enamel matt coat.   

I will post some links to my photopages later, and will start a new album to show some of the finishes that I have used.   Again, Heather, thanks for posting this piece.

[ian_rutland]

Heather, thanks for posting this.  I feel that we are on the same page here, regarding Humbrol paints.

 

I have been building kits for nearly 60 years and know exactly of the frustrations of using paints that do not adhere well and give a patchy finish that will cause a complete repaint.  Here are a few observations from a long standing hairy stick wielder.  ( I also find them most convenient. )

 

I always use Humbrol, or Xtracolour enamels.  

 

The older Humbrol enamels did give great coverage, but could be slightly gritty.  When they introduced Authentic Colours, they hit the perfect blend, and by ensuring that they were sufficiently stirred, they gave a hard and dry finish, over which to apply your camo colours.  Unfortunately, and tragically, the factory was destroyed in a fire.  Suddenly, our range of choice vanished, overnight.  I tried to stock up on my favourite colours, but they were vanishing from the shelves.

 

The next few years meant using up what I had left.  Just to remind myself how good they were, I sometimes build a subject that sends me looking for one of the old tins, and with careful stirring, it performs as well as remembered.

 

Next step was to move to the Xtracolour range.  They could be tacky and needed to be thinned carefully.  If done so, they worked very well and didn't need to be varnished before decalling.  This was a good point in their favour.   The colours were very good, too, and covered just about subject known.  The early plastic pots were pretty rubbish, but Hannants realised the issue and sent me a box of empty tins.  Good customer support, without any red tape: Priceless.

 

Around this point, I had the luck of buying some Aeromaster colours, also from Hannants, I believe.  These were my first step into the world of acryics.  Due to safety concerns, water based acrylics seemed the way to go.  The best way to use these paints was by applying them over an aerosol applied coat of acrylic grey.  I found Halfords Primer grey the best available.  ( Very close to RAF Dark Sea Grey. BTW.)  This gave the plastic some grip for the paints.  I used this first with Xtracolour and then with Aeromaster.  

 

Aeromaster and Xtracolour became my paints of choice, and I still do use the latter.  It's consistent and readily available, though there were some issues over postage.  I'm not sure about these issues at the moment. 

 

Unfortunately, Aeromaster stopped making their paint, though I'm still in possession of a waning supply of my favourite colours.  Over the primer, you simply painted the first coat onto the model.  I love to use a nice wide and flat Humbrol brush for this. ( Check Humbrol Tools and techniques.  Some interesting stuff on there. ) Two coats of initial colour, followed by two coats of camo colour, and all within minutes!  Leave for an hour, or three and use low tack masking tape.  I use the stuff from Boyes, or Tamiya, though the Boyes shop is about twenty minutes walk, or half an hour in the car, plus parking. :-)

 

Once applied, you can add the undersurface colour.  You can buff it for a semi gloss finish, or use Johnsons Kleer, or its Humbrol version.  Small warning here:  The Gloss and Semi Gloss both work well, again with a flat brush, but the Matt leaves white deposits everywhere, leaving a snow scene effect.

 

Now, then.  Where are we now?  Base coat Primer.  Done . . . Halfords.         

 

Good enamel . . .  Done.  Xtracolour.  Good acrylics????  Many of them, but they do like to be airbrushed.  

 

 Humbrol : New Screw Top Range.  Actually, these are now pretty good and the secret lies in Good Primer and Careful Thinning with Humbrol's own thinners.

 

Vallejo?  Got loads.  Can be very useful for numerous aplications.  Still not 100% pleased with their RAF Colours though.   They are all in the ‘Air’ range, so you get ‘ready to spray’ paint.   The Dark Green looks a little too 'spinach' to me.  Nice reds and metallics though.  Easy to use, too.  I buy them and then match them to my FS Colour ( Color ) Chips.  This usually finds me the right mix.

 

I must say that I do like those wargame colours and washes from Citadel.  The Bone White is great and the Whatever Black makes a fine black finish.  Their metallics are also well worth a look.  They adhere well and leave a nice, even finish.

 

That leaves Miniature Paints, which I used to get from The Signalman at Railway shows.  They are available from Ral Partha now, I believe.  I use a lot of others in my quest for Aeromaster II, but none really come close enough for us avid hand painters.

 

I've had some more of the newer Humbrol enamels, though they are still a bit up and down.  Revell, I really struggle with.  It dries in seconds before you can work it.

 

Here's an interesting thing that I saw at a demo : Use Vallejo Airbrush cleaner as a thinner.  It stays fluid longer, but will soon go off.  It's a very useful retarder.

 

One more little observation.  Painting acrylics onto plastic doesn't work.  Plastic is Oil Based and Acrylic is not.  There simply is not the surface tension in the paint to hold it.  Some will actually go on, but look patchy.  Always use a spray primer, Halfords acrylic grey seems to adhere to anything, or even a hand painted grey enamel matt coat.  

 

I hope that these ramblings will be found useful.

 

Here’s a link to my photo page.  This album shows some of the ideas mentioned above.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23594891@N07/albums/72157678405805246

[dabhand]

i've used humbrol enamel for many years.  quality and consistency of colour has varied.  but i've adopted a 'shelf-life' policy [three years then binned].  i always thin the paint from new, and thorough stirring/agitation before every use keeps things acceptable for me.

i use the british 5p coin as an agitator in each tinlet, and use an electronic egg timer to ensure i shake the tinlet for 5 minutes before every use.  planning my painting helps keep the number of repeat tinlet shakings down - i group commonly coloured parts/kits together for single colour sessions!

i've two humbrol gloss colours (19 bright red and the 'arrow red') that have taken beyond 24 hours to dry, but i place freshly painted parts in ventilated boxes to prevent dust settling.  

i've used acrylics provided in some airfix 'giftsets' following advice on 'youtube' [finishing the airfix 1/72nd spitfire mkI] applied a very thinned first coat followed by a 'full strength' second and have found results OK, but have done this only for internal colours and/or small parts.  acrylics seem to dry 'to thick' for general brush-painting to me. 

[Ratch]

 You thin your enamels, why not thin your acrylics?

Painting is about consistency (or flow), it should be like milk and if the paint seems thick it should be thinned. The trouble is that each paint is different so a one percentage fits all approach doesn't work.

[Russ1707821018]

Heather, for a happy airbrushing experience I would recommend Tamiya or GSI Mr Color. Both are spirit based acrylic that work beautifully if thinned with cellulose or Mr Color Levelling Thinner. I've heard lots of good things about Mr Paint, but not tried it yet.

GSI Mr Color is wonderful paint with Mr Color Levelling Thinner. It does have to be thinned to brush paint or airbrush though.

[Russ1707821018]

The other option for enamels in the UK is Xtracolour from Hannants. The tins I have bought have been of consistent quality and it can be brush painted. The one drawback is that it takes forever (days) to dry because it's a gloss paint. I have found that it dries considerably faster when airbrushed using lacquer (cellulose) thinners. The gloss finish does eliminated the need for a gloss clear coat prior to decalling but will require a clear flat coat for an authentic matt finish if appropriate.

[Heather Kavanagh]

I am pleased my little rant has generated some useful discussion. I am resolved to try and learn to love acrylics.

 

i have used Hannants' Xtracrylix for my Whitley build. It wasn't a total success, but I learned what was and wasn't possible. Now I have the required RAF colours for future builds, I will press on with them. I just need to invest in the required Luftwaffe set as well, rather than soldier on with the dodgy Humbrol enamels. Having said that, for my Battle of Britain fetish I bought the gift set last year. That has given me the new tool Hurricane, Spitfire, Emil and He111, plus pots of Humbrol acrylic paints. I'll give them a go and see how I get on with them.

 

Thanks all!

[wcndave]

I last made models in the 80's when there was really only enamel IIRC.  I never really had any problems.

Acrylic (or non oil based) paints seem to be far more common now across all disciplines, from woodwork to houses, due I guess to being safer and more environmentally friendly.

Now I am making my first models with my kids, and found that the acrylic paint seems to have lots of problems.

The main one is this simple Red Arrow I am making with my youngest.  The body has been primed, however the paint simply does not want to adhere.  Not only does it leave nasty gaps, but it wants to pool itself into blobs, like the T2 coming back to life...

Also the colour and thickness of this paint is really poor.  This model now looks like a horrible pink peice of rubbish, which given my son's excitement and enthusiasm is really quite disappointing.

[Kenneth ONeill]

@wcndave Did you wash down the parts before starting to paint? What you describe is a common problem with using water-based acrylics over plastic that has oily fingermarks and/or release agent on it.

[peebeep]

One more little observation.  Painting acrylics onto plastic doesn't work.  Plastic is Oil Based and Acrylic is not.  There simply is not the surface tension in the paint to hold it.  Some will actually go on, but look patchy.  Always use a spray primer, Halfords acrylic grey seems to adhere to anything, or even a hand painted grey enamel matt coat.  

 

Actually, some acrylics are spirit based, for instance Tamiya and GS Mr Color. They adhere well and can be painted onto bare plastic surfaces without any particular necessity to prime.