Switching Points

[Lbardo]

Hello everyone and Happy New Year. 

 

Im new to this fantastic hobby and I'm starting off by taking my time and going to build a double oval with a outer sidebay ( Oval with A,B,C) and adding an  additional switching point for an internal branch off for a loco shed. 

I have a few questions of which I hope you don't mind asking as may be going over questions that's already been asked numerous times. 

 

1) best place to purchase ground substrate (green grass grit / dirt / bushes) etc etc 

2) At current the track comes with manual switching points but I'm wondering if i can install electric ones without needing the decoder / DCC system (of which I don't know anything about).  Could i just wire the point motor to a simple "push to make contact" switch so basically when I press the button once it switches the track position?

 

Thanks in advance, your help is very much appreciated for my novice but very keen mindset 

[Rog RJ]

1. Search the internet for model shops.  Hattons, Gaugemaster, Rails of Sheffield, Kernow models. ...... the list is almost endless and there are lots of adverts in the various modelling mags available from many newsagents.

 

2. Yes you can operate point motors with switches without using DCC decoders.  Be aware though that Hornby point motors, which are solenoids, and other makes of solenoid point motors such as those made by Peco and Gaugemaster's Seep motors will overheat and burn out VERY quickly if power is applied for more than a few seconds.  To prevent this happening it is best to use passing contact switches such as Hornby's R044 and Peco PL-26 switches.  These are quite expensive and many people choose to use much cheaper non locking toggle switches which can be fitted into a home made control panel.

 

For more information visit Brian Lambert's site which contains a wealth of information.  http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk

 

[LCDR]

Welcome,

There are a number of methods of working points electrically all of which entail fitting a motor either under or alongside the points and running wires to them. Point motors can be mounted under the base board with a wire coming up through a slot in the board into the tie bar that moves the point blades. Alternatively the motor can be mounted on top of the board and connected to the points by a rod. The motor can then be concealed by scenery such as a hut or signal box.

 

Because the points are usually operated by a solenoid if you wire them up in analogue mode they will need three wires to to motor. A common wire and a wire each for 'normal' and 'reverse' . the 'normal' and 'reverse' should only be energised by a short burst of electricity, because if you leave the power on the solenoid gets hot and can burn out. SO you need to wire either a 'passing contact' switch which can deliver a short pulse of electricity to one or other of the 'normal' or 'reverse' wires.or  pair of push buttons which will do the same, but you must make certain that the push is brief and that the switch is released immediately that the point operates.

 

A novel method of operation and one I have used in the past is to have a diagram of the layout painted on to a board (sometimes called a mimic board) , and alongside the illustration of the points inset into the board are two brass contacts marked 'N' and 'R'  (I used brass round head screws) From underneath these screws the normal & reverse operating wires run to the point motor.  Attached to the board is what is referred to as an "Electric Pencil". This is connected to the point power supply and is so arranged that as you touch the brass contact with the pencil a pulse of electricity fires the points to the desired position. The return from the points goes to the other side of the power supply of course.  The electric pencil can be made from an old ball point pen with a brass (or copper) rod where the ink cartridge used to go, with about 5mm sticking out at the end. The rod has a wire soldered to the other end concealed in the pencil and runs to a connection on the mimic board.

 

To get a good pulse of electricity I used the electric pencil system with a Capacitor Discharge Unit (CDU) .  The system operates on about 18 volts but the CDU gives a good burst just when you need it.

 

[Chrissaf]

Just to add to Rog(RJ) reply. Use a CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit) to fire the solenoid points. A CDU completely protects the solenoid coils from over heating. Note that the Hornby R044 switches that Rog mentioned are not compatible with a CDU, the PECO PL-26 switches are very effective with a CDU and work just fine & dandy. The web site given above is an excellent source of information for wiring up point motors without using DCC and also explains why the R044 is not recommended for use with a CDU.

.

Yes you could use simple push to make press switches with a CDU too. You would need two push switches per point. One for each point direction throw. Many non DCC users replace the 'press to make' switches with a single NON-LOCKING sprung centre off changeover toggle switch.

.

Note the CDU is shared resource for ALL points, you don't need a separate CDU for each point. Brian's drawings and wiring diagrams explain all.

.

To make life easier, I have provided a direct link below that is clickable to the relevant page on Brian's Internet site.

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html#Motor

[Lbardo]

Thank you everyone. 

 

Lots of good information and resources there. 

[81F]

There is some really good "static flock" for grass made by different manufacturers. I think this is a nylon type filamenty that stands on end when sprincled onto a pre-glued surface. I use a variety of different makes as they are a slightly different shade of green and "blend" them as i sprincle (see below).

 

If sprincled over freshly balasted tracks it also makes a good overgrown siding

 

/media/tinymce_upload/612508f3707e9ddd492f112827520f4e.jpg

 

My technique is to usually paint the baseboard first (some use the same colour as the scatter material or flock they intend to use so that any bare patches of board do not show up although I prefer to paint mine the same colour as the underlying rock. My long departed Devon base railway used terracotta while my current Welsh model uses dark grey.

[Lbardo]

Will a PECO PL-11 side mounted turnout work with the normal hornby point track i recieved with set such as the 3 x R8073 i already have, or do i need to buy a special point that a motor can control?

i'm intending to install my track directly onto Celotex surface so may have to very lightly glue motor down once in correction postioning? 

 

Can i power all this from the AUX 12v from my HM 2000 controller?

[Chrissaf]

From actual practical experience I can confirm that the AUX output of a HM2000 controller will operate solenoid points provided a CDU is used. The output of the HM2000 AUX output is quite a low current, thus it is absolutely ideal for use with a CDU. The capacitors in the CDU charge up and hold a charge. They are then able to release this pent up charge into the solenoid point motor with the significantly higher current discharge kick that the solenoid point motors require to operate robustly.

.

The PECO PL-11 is physically compatible with Hornby points. I'm not convinced that lightly gluing the point motor down will last reliably in the longer term. When solenoid point motors fire, they generate quite a kick. It is likely that over time that light gluing will fail.

[Lbardo]

Ok this is good news so 3 x PECO PL-11 it is. Is there any CDU's that will work better with these than others i should be looking at? I was going to use the AUX 12V output from the Controller to supply the LED street lamps etc but i will now probably just use an external 13A plugtop style 3/12V Regulated transformer. 

 

will probably draw the layout as someone suggested and then position prung to centre SPDT toggle switches in the corrisponding positions/directions. 

 

 

[Rog RJ]

Using 12 volts dc to switch points is a bit marginal even with a CDU.  It has traditionally been the practice to use 15 or 16 volts ac to power point motors.  Many of the older controllers had an auxiliary 16 volts ac power outlet on them which was ideal for this purpose.

[Lbardo]

I could always run motors  from external 16V and then lamps back on the aux. I'll take your advice as I know nothing :). 

 

Can you reccomend any 16V transformers and what mA?

[Lbardo]

On the 2000, there's 2 sets of controlled DC and an uncontrolled AC/DC the DC might be greater than 12V, I'm not sure what the output voltage is

[Chrissaf]

As I said, in my earlier reply. From personal experience the AUX output of the HM2000 operates the points fine as long as a CDU is used, the HM2000 AUX ouput is actually higher than 12 volts and well suited for use with a CDU. In my case, I built my own CDU they are a very simple circuit, but if you need a ready made one I would suggest a CDU by Gaugemaster.

.

I would NOT use the AUX output of the HM2000 for general layout lighting. I would use a separate high current 12 volts regulated supply for lighting. Once you get carried away adding lighting and other 12 volt accessories, the current required from the power supply quickly adds up. If you use the HM2000 for this, the current for lighting soon eats into the current available to run your trains. This is not so when using the HM2000 AUX output as a power input to a CDU. Only a small current is taken from the HM2000 AUX output, and only when a point is fired. Thus, for all intents and purposes, all of the HM2000 power is available for running trains.