elite declared uneconomic to repair

[Belah]

i have noticed in a couple of threads that members have mentioned that their elite has been declared uneconomic to repair.  it appears that the elite may still work in some ways but is obviously not fully operationable.  i too suffered this problem last year. My elite bore the batch number stamped on the case of 38/11. The problem that could not be repaired was that it would not set up Hornby Accessory Decoders.  Subsequently it would not faciliate setting up new locos either direcly or via Railmaster.  i replaced it with a new Elite and assumed this to be a one off problem. Now i feel less certain and wonder if the problem is more widespread.  i wonder if other forum members have experienced this issue?  if so can i invite them to post the batch number and brief description of the outcome as a reply to this topic?

PS Hornby Customer Support did offer a discount when i purchased the replacement Elite.

I run my layout using Railmaster Pro and Elite, controlling approx 90 points using DC Concept decoders and 20 using Hornby decoders.

[Fishmanoz]

You can find a number of reports of faulty Elites on here and program output not working is one of the more common.  Do a forum search on Elite and, amongst the 36 pages returned, you'll find some on page 2.

[Chrissaf]

Someone did recently post that after upgrading an Elite (previously declared uneconomic to repair) to version 1.43 firmware, that it miraculously began working again. You could try that to see if it works for you as well. Although that is probably a very long shot and clutching at straws, but no harm in trying, if only for the upgrading technique experience.

.

If not sure how to do the firmware upgrade then just use the forum search box for "1.43 Firmware". Then on the topic the search results return look at my replies (the original first post at top of page one for the downloadable firmware files and my post at the very bottom of page four giving a link to the instructions of how to use them).

[Belah]

thank you for the suggestions.  whilst the elite in question is languishing in a drawer under the railway it must be worth trying to install the upgrade in it to see if this too can be resurected.

[WilliamDavid]

It was me who reported the update 'fixing' the programming issue.

Unfortunately it turns out I was a bit premature. Further use showed it was ok on some locos, and not on others.

I am still using it with Railmaster to play trains, and when I want to do some programming, and it fails, I bring in the Elink.

I find it rather a poor show that these very pricey items are 'uneconomical' to repair. £250 is a lot to pay for an item that goes wrong and can't be fixed 

[96RAF]

I shall be attempting a repair to my Test box Elite over the weekend but it ain't gonna be easy. I shall have to use an iron as a hot air rework tool could unsolder all the other bits around it (you can see the empty place on the board just below my finger). Two of those blighters to replace.

 

The components being replaced are based upon a failure mode analysis of the output circuit that feeds the Prog and Boost terminals via that relay you hear clicking in synch with the red led.

 

The proof will be in the Programming as they say. At present I am in the same state as WD having to switch in the eLink to read and write CVs.

Rob

 

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[RDS]

Oh dear, mine is 38/11 (but still working - at the moment)

 

Good Luck with your repair RAF96

[Yelrow]

This Elite problem, has not reared its head, before about 6 months ago. It begs the question, was /is there a faulty batch, and if so, do Hornby recognise this, and are they offering a soltion.  Is it an age thing. john

[52train]

My elite went turtle told by Hornby nfg bought a new one then got a voucher if it goes again ill try somthing else . Don't Know what yet!

[Fishmanoz]

Given Rob has isolated the fault to a modern surface mount component, it should not be a general age thing, but a faulty batch of components is certainly a possibility.

 

And if Rob is really right, then not surprising Hornby might declare such faults uneconomic to repair.  Diagnosing and replacing such surface mount components is somewhat specialised and I would not expect to find the skills and equipment in the Hornby repair shop.  However, given this is getting to be common, and if it is a faulty component batch, collecting them and sending them out to a specialist as a job lot from time to time, may well be economic.

 

So very interested to hear how you go Rob.

[96RAF]

..collecting them and sending them out to a specialist as a job lot from time to time, may well be economic...

Already suggested Fishy seeing as HCC appear incapable of in-house repairs down to component level on circuit boards.

 

Progress report on the Elite:

I have managed to replace the two devices on both Elites using a 15W iron with a 3mm tip. HCC said the output pins could be ganged (the pcb tracking under this (left) side of the chip is bridged anyhow, hence the question to them) so I have lump soldered those together for ease of soldering and reliability, but the input pins (right side) are soldered individually as seen here (the two devices above and below the item with the H on it)...

 

/media/tinymce_upload/1475d89a6e80d36144c0bd4e7e7d6056.JPG

The photo was taken before I cleaned off the flux spatter with IPA and a cotton bud.

 

I doubt using a hot air rework tool would work as well as the normal iron as it could refloat all those surrounding components.

 

So far one Elite is showing the 'B' channel is working as proven by the led indicator on my ESU decoder test rig, therefore one device is soldered OK and working (but which one?).

 

'A' channel is still duff on that Elite so no actual programming possible yet. The other Elite is still duff on both channels, so I am hoping the fault is not upstream of the bits I am replacing as my diagnositic skills are at full stretch as it is.

 

Plodding on after lunch.

Rob

 

 

[Rog RJ]

What sort of component are they Rob?

Part number would be handy.

[96RAF]

@rog

IRF 7509 dual mosfet - I have the data sheet. Each pair of D1 & D2 pins is linked inside the device and also all four D pins sit on a bridged part of the PCB - see first picture, down and left of the H component, just under my finger where the new chip is. At the other side is a new chip positioned but not soldered.

 

I don't know if I am getting the soldering wrong or if I am cooking the chips (sorry). Taking them out again is easy but then I bin them and put a new one in as I have no idea if they remain serviceable.

 

I shall have another try this morning.

[Rog RJ]

Perhaps getting overheated while soldering. Try soldering one pair of terminals, wait a few seconds before tackling the next pair.

Presumably you are taking anti static precautions all the way through the handling process.

[Yelrow]

I dont know haw many number series there are on the Elites, or what batch,  have known faults.  Mine and my lads are 51/11, and 17/08, and we know from earlier post, about a third number. Might be worth compiling a list, do we think. john

[96RAF]

Compile away John - lets see what serries numbers people have. Maybe you could keep the list for us.

Maybe people could tell if they have had any problems so far with their box.

Mine are:

17/08 and 28/11 - don't know the number on the UK one until I get there end of March.

All three have lost programming, but two were due to cross wiring by me during testing so probably shouldn't count.no problem updating with new installer, but always had to use XP before that was introduced.

Rob

[96RAF]

Perhaps getting overheated while soldering. Try soldering one pair of terminals, wait a few seconds before tackling the next pair.

Presumably you are taking anti static precautions all the way through the handling process.

@Rog

Wrist band on  - the packet says they should be cooked at 125degC for 24 hours to drive out moisture if you are using flow soldering, but I presume that is more for a production line thing. These solder fine, but I will try the in/out and wait technique on the next attempt.

 

I think I am winning but the PCB tracks on one board are starting to get beaten up with ripping out the old chips out.

 

Try again tomorrow...

Rob

[96RAF]

Just a brief update on this repair for those interested...

 

I have managed to get one Elite firmly outputting about half expected voltage on the Boost terminals and showing this voltage on both wires at my ESU decoder tester from the Prog terminals, but this voltage is not enough to reliably program a decoder. Sometimes it will and sometimes it won't, so the faulty component diagnosis seems to be correct but the workmanship required to solder at this level is not easy and I may also have semi-cooked an associated chip in that circuit thus limiting the output voltage.

 

I am using an Antex 15W iron with a 1.2mm tip which may be a tad too hot at 370 degC as the chips are limited to 240 degC for 10 seconds. It is fairly easy to get in and out in that time doing one leg at a time on each side of the chip. Lining the chip legs up with the pcb tracks with one hand whilst soldering with the other under a magnifier is a tad more difficult.

 

The second Elite is now a write off as I damaged the pcb tracks for one chip whilst removing the chip for the umpteenth time and now I have somehow introduced the same fault as HBM had - the chip under the heatsink is smoking, so I have called a halt. That one will be used for spares now (Case, screen, switches, terminal blocks, etc)

 

As I have no way of testing these little chips all I can do when the thing doesnt work after replacement is to replace them again and now I only have a few chips left so I am saving those to have a go at the duff Elite in UK when I go over there next weekend.

 

So if anyone wants to have a go at fixing their out of warranty Elite with duff programming then sharpen up your soldering skills and try it. I shan't wonder if I can solder smd leds and resistors, etc in future, they will be a doddle after this job.

Rob

 

[Augustus Caesar]

@Rob

 

Missed this thread somehow... anyway, you say a reflow of the solder may cause problems with surrounding chips if attempted.

Were you not considering using foil to protect the chips either double or triple layer?

I use this when reflowing graphics chips on laptops etc. and don't have a problem. Granted the graphics chips are larger and one can move the hot air gun around a bit more but surely the smaller chips would be protected if covered?

Just curious as I have not attempted a small area of reworking such as the small mosfets for example.

[96RAF]

@AC

I may try a hot air gun with a masking nozzle next time.

 

There are sets on Amazon with various size and configuration nozzles for not much money.

Rob

[Augustus Caesar]

You may want to have a look at one of those temperature readers which is basically a laser pointed to the heated object so you can take a reading in either Celsius or Fahrenheit. Having said that you may have one already!

I may also seek out those nozzles because one never knows when one is required and the job would be urgent knowing my luck.

[96RAF]

Mine are:

17/08 and 28/11 - don't know the number on the UK one until I get there end of March.

UK one is 17/11.

Rob