BagEndJct Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I have purchased two Zen DCC decoder chips to replace a couple of decoders that I have managed to blow. The Zen decoders come with separate "stay alive" chips. The locos where I am fitting the new Zen decoders do not need "stay alive" but I have a couple of Hornby 0-6-0 locos which have prefitted, presumably 4-wire, Hornby decoders, which could well benefit from this. The question is, will the Zen stay alives chips with Hornby decoders, I wonder? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Just a point of terminology correction. The ZEN Stay Alives are "Ceramic Capacitors" uF value unknown not "chips". There is no reason why they cannot be fitted to other decoders to provide stay alive capabilities. The ZEN Stay Alive 'blue' wire needs to be connected to the decoder +ve (blue wire) and the ZEN Stay Alive 'black' wire needs to connect to the negative side of the decoder bridge rectifier. This connection point is NOT extended out on a separate wire except on decoders that are factory designed for 'Stay Alives', such as your ZEN decoders. Thus the negative side of the decoder bridge rectifier will need to be identified and a wire soldered to it (very fine soldering skills and good eyesight will be required)..This previous post, shows where the negative connection point is on a Hornby R8249 decoder. Fifth reply down on the page..https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/13404/?p=2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagEndJct Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Chris. Thank you so much for the detailed reply. Very helpful. My soldering skills are not up to that but I have a friend who is pretty good. If he does not feel confident enough to do it, I'll swap out the decoder for a Zen one. I have already purchased some DCC 8-pin sockets to accomodate these decoders (I bought the ones with integral plug) and I know his soldering is easily up to installing those for me. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Let all of us know how it goes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagEndJct Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Will do! It will be a few weeks before my soldering friend is back in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 In my experience the Zen stay-alive have so little power capacity that they will only power a loco for a few tens of milli-seconds. Just enough to stop brownouts over a speck of dirt, but not enough if the loco is stalling on insu-frog points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Thanks for that Nick. I had a feeling that might be the case, when I read on the ZEN user guide that they were 'Ceramic Capacitors' and why in my original reply I used the phrase "uf value unknown". Ceramic Capacitors by their very nature of manufacture have limited capacitance capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I have also 'wasted' money previously on a Zen Decoder with Stay Alive.Mine was completely useless for the purpose for which I purhased it and is currently back in it's original packaging - unused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OssieB Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I have also had the same experience with Zen Decoders with Stay Alive. As Nick_ has stated, they only have the stay alive power over very small imperfections on the track, but certainly not over insulfrogs. I replaced the Zen stay alive with one I made from infromation given in a previous post on the subject of stay alives, using a 2200uF capacitor. This was largest dimensioned one that could be accomadated in the cab of the loco. This more or less improved the slow running over of this loco over the offending points.BarryO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagEndJct Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 Looks like it's not worth the hassle of trying to fit them, then. Thanks for the warnings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernwill Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I had a loco that was a bit hesitant and jerky in acceleration and stalled occasionally over insulfrog points. So I decided to try out a ZEN stay alive.Now the loco accelerates beautifully smoothly, no hesitancy at all and, so far, not a single stall over the points.And they are very compact if you have limited space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagEndJct Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Pleased to hear that! Nothing ventured........ We'll give them a whirl after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 ... We'll give them a whirl after all! Please let us know the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanQ4 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 BEJYou like me and many others have been deceived by DCC Concepts Stay Alive due to its similar name to TCS Keep Alive.The DCC Concepts Stay Alive retails for A$6.65 ea.The TCS Keep Alive retails for between A$33.00 and A$40.00 ea. depending on model.If you speak to DCC Concepts they will tell you, as they did me, that their capacitor is only meant to smooth out the running of the loco, nothing else.You get what you pay for, which in DCC Concepts case isn't much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblinwheel Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 TCS is the only way to go for "Keep Alive" function. Mine, in Hornby A4's, give me around five seconds runtime without power. I do have a loco with a Soundtraxx sound decoder with their "Current Keeper" installed, and it runs at least ten to fifteen seconds without power, sound and lighting included! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Norman, you can hardly call it deception when DCC Concepts tells you what their product does. And theirs is no different to many others including the Zen which is the product first mentioned here. The TCS product, and others using so-called super capacitors, can of course store much more energy in a similar space and keep a loco running for considerably longer than just over a little dirt, as Wobbly attests. They are also much more expensive as the super capacitors themselves (a number usually required) are more expensive, plus additional current protection is needed. So like you say, you get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanQ4 Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Fishy, I just don't get the point of your post. My experience was as a newbie to DCC as is likely to be the position of most people buying or thinking of buying this product. Sure DCC Concepts provide information on their Stay Alive but it is the very last item on the very last page of an information document that has to be searched for, nothing is mentioned on the page that you purchase from and there is no link there to additional information which is available on some other items. I think that it can fairly be described as deceptive when you use similar naming without clearly pointing out the many limitations. When I contacted DCC Concepts to complain about the Stay Alive I was told that most people get confused by the terms Stay Alive and Keep Alive. Surprise Surprise! I don’t think that’s a coincidence. ZEN isn’t another product, as you say. It is DCC Concepts Stay Alive. I’ve said Keep Alives are much more expensive and even gave comparative pricing. Here is a copy of the interesting footer on the information document. HOWEVER - DCCconcepts DO listen to customers and for those who have asked us to also make a larger “Stay-Alive” there’s good news-We will. We will release it within the first half of 2015. It will still be small enough to remain easily installable... and it will NOT be too expensive! When you click on the High-Power Slimline Stay Alive, which is what I presume they are referring to above, you get a page header and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 ... most people get confused by the terms Stay Alive and Keep Alive ... It fooled me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I have tried the DCCConcepts high power stay alive and even 2 in parallel still wouldn't power a loco for more than 100ms, so still no use if insu-frogs are causing you a problem. Having said that the ZEN decoders are pretty reasonable decoders and if you do install one, so long as you have the space, it is worth installing the stay alive because it does appear to improve very slow speed running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 It should be noted that the term 'Keep Alive' is a registered Trade Mark of TCS so any other similar product must have a different name anyway.........HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Point taken Norman. Only one other thing I'd add - to my knowledge, it was TCS who started the confusion, there's is the later product onto the market when stay alive was a commonly used term and the DCC Concepts product existed. If anyone believes that is wrong, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_ Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 TCS keep alive have been around since 2012 or possibly earlier and will power a loco for many seconds.DCCConcepts stay alive may have been around for longer but will only power a loco for a few milliseconds. Lenz also have a stay alive which works with their gold decoders and apparent power a loco for many seconds and can even pick up the DCC signalling even when they can't pick up power! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sultan Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I have tried DCC Concepts Zen decoder with stay alive and was very very disappointed. It just did not work,I use the TCS KAM4 in two of my Bachmann 0-6-0 panniers they run like a dream over dead frog points.https://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Decoders/HO-Scale/KAM-Series/KAM-Series.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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