Which brake for mk1 pullman

[Buz]

Hi all

I know all this is somewhere on the forum but can't find it

With the myriad of Pullman coaches available which old style brakes are best suited to run with MK1 Pullmans

Don't seem to be able to find a brake second Pullman cars other than an un-lit in one of the sets.

As an aside a BR green class what would be most likely haul them I assume the up to the minute locomotives would be used on the real posh trains.

Would the first and second kitchen cars be marshaled together 1st parlor 1st kitchen 2nd kitchen 2nd bar 2nd parlour is what I have in mind for the MK1 Pullmans with older style brake Pullman coaches.

Ouch!! that's going wipe out this year's hobby budget and then some

regards John

[LCDR]

There were no Mark 1 brake Pullmans so some of the 'all steel' K class brake cars were retained for this purpose. Car 79 which is on the NYMR is just such a car which I guess is why it survived. It was withdrwn in April 1965 and sold to Slag Reduction at Rotherham, but was saved from there.

Cars 77 to 80 were built as brake cars for the Queen of Scots, and 67 to 71, 81 and 82 were  converted to brake cars in 1959 - 1960 for working with the new Mark 1 Pullmans.

Final allocations were Car 67 in the Master Cutler, Car 72 in the Tyne Tees Pullman , Car 71 in the Yorkshire Pullman The last in use was Car 78 in the White Rose Pullman in 1965, and ordinary Mark 1 brake coaches (in maroon) used thereafter. From that time more and more ordinary carriages in maroon were included, replacing Pullman cars in the train. When the Mark 1 Pullmans were painted grey and blue the Mark 1 ordinary brakes looked less incongruous. Not all cars were repainted and at least 10 were still in umber and cream in 1975.

 

On 5th May 1978 the last Yorkshire Pullman had 4 grey and blue Mark 1 Pullman cars and seven BR ordinary Mark 1s in blue and grey.

 

Deltic (later known as class 55)  diesels hauled them from about 1961, before that it had been A4 class steam, or English Electric type 4 1Co-Co1 diesels.

 

And yes it would be normal to segregate first and second class in the train. And a kitchen car would usually be associated with a parlour car next to it so the waiting staff did not have to walk through the train with hot food getting cold. The brake cars were all second so thy would be at either end.

 

 

[Buz]

Hi LC&DR

From, that I take it I could use a MK1 full brake one end and a Pullman K type or crimson brake second the other.

And should perhaps swap the position of the 2nd bar and 2nd parlor cars around?

Of course bearing in mind that most of us think of 6 to 8 coaches is not a bad size for a main line train that length seems good to me

A4 I have one of those so maybe can get away with that provided it's BR green rather than apple green.

or Mallard perhaps 😆 maybe not the one I have is LNER blue.

regards John

 

[LCDR]

 Hi John

A BR dark green A4 would be ideal, but also a green EE type 4 (later to be class 40) or a green Deltic would also do.

 

I have a picture of D0280 'Falcon; on the Hull Pullman arriving at Kings Cross, and A1 class 60123 'H A Ivatt' in the up Yorkshire Pullman with Mark 1 Pullmans. This latter is strangely formed with a Mark 1 Kitchen car, and a Parlour car first up, then a K class brake Parlour, another Matk 1 Kitchen car and a Parlour car, and another Kitchen car and Parlour behind, with a  K class brake Parlour on the rear.

 

Anoiher picture this time of the Harrogate Pullman has the first three cars as K class cars, a Brake Parlour a Kitchen and a Parlour, then alternate Mark 1 Pullman Parlour and Kitchens, with a All steel K Brake Parlour on the rear. The loco is yet another A1 60141 'Abbotsford'. In fact I have quite a few pictures of the Yorkshire Pullman with an A1 in charge.

 

I think the BR Mark 1 brake van would be a BSK, BSO or BFK and not a full brake, that would be at the other end from the All Steel K brake Parlour car.

[LCDR]

 For A4s I have 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower on 6 Mark 1 Pullmans with a K clas Brake Parlour front and back on the Yorkshire, and 60034 Lord Farringdon arriving into York on the up Tees Tyne also with six Mark 1s and two K class.

 

A short train was the Bradford portion of the Whie Rose Pullman, and I have a picture if D9010 arriving into Bradford exchange with two Mark 1 Pullmans and a K class car only.

[Postman Prat]

 The only photos of the Yorkshire Pullman that I can readily put my hands on all show an A1 from Ardsley/Copley Hill at the head. As the 'top link' locos at those depots were A1s it would suggest that this train was a turn from one of those depots ?   

[LCDR]

PP

 

I agree I think that makes a lot of sense.

 

 I have since found a picture of the 'Master Cutler' with a Brush 2 A1A-A1A in charge!

 

I think the Streaks were more likely on the Tyne Tees Pullman  which possibly would be a Gateshead / Top Shed duty.

[Bulleidboy]

I recall seeing the Master Cutler with an A4 up front on many occasions when spotting at New Southgate (London N11), in the very late fifties/early sixties.

[Postman Prat]

 Hi LC&DR

 

For a spell I seem to recall, class 31s were the rostered power for the Master Cutler, in particular the one with the uprated engine (2000hp) which was the same power as a class 40.

 

I can't remember for certain the home depot for the Tyne/Tees loco, normally an A4, although I think it was Kings Cross. The Queen of Scots was normally a Neville Hill A3 by the time it got to Newcastle, although it had the reversal at Leeds.

 

The tv programme about Kings Cross tonight was very good, for the type of programme it was. They certainly had a bad day   😆

[LCDR]

 Yes I enjoyed it.

 

Railway  work has not it seems changed  much.

 

I have an experience which was very similar.

 

On the first day of a new train service ("The Stopper's Out " 1976 when a new track layout at London Bridge was brought in to use) I was 14 hours ASM at Faversham. My mate was on holiday and so we did by agreement a double 7 hour shift. 6:15 am to 8:15 pm.

 

The new service went in well, in the morning and all the 'happy' commuters were whisked up to London pretty much on time, despite the fact we were trying to learn a completely new timetable.

 

However during the late  afternoon (a particularly hot dry day) a track side fire on Sole Street bank was reported, and shortly afterwards, the signalling and power cables caught fire. All the trains from Victoria and Cannon Street returning the commuters were the wrong side of the fire and pretty soon they were queuing up between St Mary Cray and Sole Street. The power outage also affected Strood, so trains off the North Kent line were also delayed.

 

By the time the fire was put out, and some temporary cable repairs were put into place it was already getting late. Trains were approaching up to three or four hours late.  To make matters worse train crew were displaced and we had run out of drivers to take the trains forward. The timetable was unfamiliar as was the new resource programmes  We were pleading with drivers to do overtime to clear platforms either to sidings or take trains down the line. We were also running out of siding space, because of cancellations the trains were terminating at Faversham rather than going forward to Ramsgate or Dover as booked.

 

As the guy in charge I had to face the public who were less than happy, AND I had to manipulate resource programmes in conjunction with the Train Crew Supervisor, and the Control at Beckenham. It was also a fact of life that as soon as things went wrong the only sound you got when you rang the Control was the engaged tone!

 

I was extremely glad when the last train was put to bed, and I could jump on my motorbike and head off home to Herne Bay. A 14 hour shift ended up as a 17 hour one.

[Wobblinwheel]

How come American passenger trains never had "brake coaches"? Until I got into British railways, I never knew what a brake coach or "van" was! So, why did WE never need 'em??

[LCDR]

 On US passenger trains where did passengers stow heavy baggage too big to go in the saloon with them? Where does the Conductor ride when he is not checking fares and where does he do his paperwork? Where did you put mail, packages, bullion and station to station goods on US  passenger trains?

 

In a programme show here about Railroads in Alaska there are whole cars on passenger trains dedicated for  mail, baggage and parcels. Don't you have them in the rest of the US?

[Wobblinwheel]

I know we have "baggage cars". Is that the equivalent to a brake? The old passenger trains had "head end" freight cars to move goods FAST from station to station, and we had RPO's, "Railroad Post Office" cars. Did your "brake coaches" do most of these things? To be honest, I don't even know where the "conductor" hangs out....!

[LCDR]

 Yes the reason for the 'Brake' coach on passenger trains was pretty much the same as the 'Baggage Car' on US Railroads. Somewhere to lock away baggage and mails.

It was also used to accomodate the guard so he could keep an eye on it and stop people stealing it. .

 

In days before the trains had continuous brakes it was somewhere at the back of the train for the 'guard' to ride and apply a hand brake to help the driver stop the train. Unlike the US railroads  British trains continued to use hook and link couplings and side buffers right down to the Second World War and after, especially for freight trains which didn't lose the guards van (caboose?) until the 1990s. Most UK trains do have auto couplers today (but not all!) and all have continuous air brakes, but it has taken 189 years to get here.

 

Having a hand brake at the back allowed the couplings to be kept tight when running, so that the links didn't jump off the hooks. A freight guard had to be brakesman too. He had to keep a watch all the time ready to screw the brake on and off to help the driver. If the train did become uncoupled accidentally he could screw his brake on and stop the wagons running away and hitting a following train.

 

Even when passenger trains got continuous brakes it was thought a good idea to keep the guard at the back, so he could keep a lookout for the running of the train, he was instructed to check that the driver was obeying signals, and at stations he had all the train on view when flagging away so he could spot open doors and passengers trying to join at the last moment.

 

Maybe if the UK had gone in for auto couplers and air brakes throughout it trains earlier then it might have been more like US railroads, but they didn't.

 

[Wobblinwheel]

 Yes the reason for the 'Brake' coach on passenger trains was pretty much the same as the 'Baggage Car' on US Railroads. Somewhere to lock away baggage and mails.

It was also used to accomodate the guard so he could keep an eye on it and stop people stealing it. .

 

In days before the trains had continuous brakes it was somewhere at the back of the train for the 'guard' to ride and apply a hand brake to help the driver stop the train. Unlike the US railroads  British trains continued to use hook and link couplings and side buffers right down to the Second World War and after, especially for freight trains which didn't lose the guards van (caboose?) until the 1990s. Most UK trains do have auto couplers today (but not all!) and all have continuous air brakes, but it has taken 189 years to get here.

 

Having a hand brake at the back allowed the couplings to be kept tight when running, so that the links didn't jump off the hooks. A freight guard had to be brakesman too. He had to keep a watch all the time ready to screw the brake on and off to help the driver. If the train did become uncoupled accidentally he could screw his brake on and stop the wagons running away and hitting a following train.

 

Even when passenger trains got continuous brakes it was thought a good idea to keep the guard at the back, so he could keep a lookout for the running of the train, he was instructed to check that the driver was obeying signals, and at stations he had all the train on view when flagging away so he could spot open doors and passengers trying to join at the last moment.

 

Maybe if the UK had gone in for auto couplers and air brakes throughout it trains earlier then it might have been more like US railroads, but they didn't.

 

Thanks for the info, very informative! I learned some stuff today. I learned over the last couple of years that brake coaches and vans were used, and it gave me an "excuse" to buy more stuff! Honestly, until now, I didn't really understand why they were there...

[LCDR]

 The inadequacies of the British (European) type of couplings and brakes has had numerous downsides!  Worse was the number of men killed shunting wagons, either being run over or crushed between vehicles. Even in recent years this has occured, because despite carriages now being fitted with automatic couplers the locomotive still relies in a hook and a shackle.  In my penultimate year at the NYMR one of our volunteer guards was tragically killed when he was crushed between two carriages.

 

The work of shunting was laborious and slow.  Staff having to become proficient in throwing couplings over the hook with a pole with a special curly hook on the end. A trick I never fully mastered. You could not do this easily with a screw coupling (a coupling with an adjustable screw between the shackle links for vacuum fitted stock,) and it was impossible to connect the vacuum hoses without going in between the buffers.

 

Couplings breaking remained a problem, especially with trains NOT fitted with continuous brakes. To start a train from rest there was inevitably a jerk as the slack in couplings was taken up and a defect in one of the links could result in a fracture.  The way to reduce this was to screw the couplings up so that the buffers touched, and a variation of the three link coupling included a shaped centre link which allowed it to be shortened by flipping it through 90 degrees. These were called 'Instanter' couplings and first appeared on the GWR.

 

If a coupling broke, unless the train was fitted with continuous brake, the rear portion could run away back down a gradient.  The guard had a brake in his van, but if the train was too heavy and overcame the 20 ton brake van, it would run away. To minimise the impact of this, particularly on any following train, special spring loaded points called catch points were provided in rising gradients intended to derail any runaway.  This would still result in a horrible mess and a blocked line, but it might save a few lives.

 

Stopping a train without continuous brakes was very difficult. Only the locomorive and tender and the guards van on the rear had brakes that could be applied instantly.  British freight trains did not use brakemen. The nearest thing to that was a system called AWB (Apply Wagon Brakes) which was used before a train descended a falling gradient. The guard would progressively apply the individual hand brakes of each goods wagon as the driver drove slowly on to the down hill section. He would signal to the guard by whistle as soon as he considered enough hand brakes were applied. At the bottom of the gradient the train then had to stop and all the brakes then had to be released.

 

Nowadays all UK freight trains are fitted with continuous air brakes and no longer need a guards van, and no longer have a guard either. There are still wagons fitted with side buffers and screw / instanter couplings but these are slowly being replaced by auto-couplers.

 

[Fazy]

Full brake Coaches were used to move News pappers in the early morning.  And be bought out of the train at certain stations.  For example the, 4, 18 st Pancras to Manchester. Made from LMS, BTK. TK.TK  BRmk1s CK BTK, LMS, FB FB FB FB TK TK. 2 were dropped off at Wellingborough  also a coach at Bedford 1 at Leicester. The train was later reinforced by two standed passenger coaches (CKs?) at Leicester for the journey to Manchester. 

[LCDR]

 This was a fairly common arrangement on the Southern. The Newspapers from Fleet Street to the South East were loaded at Victoria on to four trains leaving at or shortly after 3 am . An example from 1956 being -

3 am Victoria to Ramsgate (Parcels & News)

3 coach corridor set, (in rear guards van - News and mail for Gravesend)

Bogie Stove brake (Van B) (Mail and News Ramsgate, Deal, Minster, Sandwich, Whitstable, Westgate on Sea, Birchington on Sea, Broadstairs)

Van (PLV) (Mail and News Dartford, Herne Bay and Margate)

Bogie Brake (Van B) (Parcels), (News – Teynham, Faversham, Canterbury, Selling to Kearsney, Dover, Martin Mill, Walmer) (Detach at Faversham)

Van  (PLV) (News -Gillingham to Newington) (Detach at Faversham)

Van  (PLV) (News – Sittingbourne to Sheerness) (Detach at Sittingbourne)

Brake Van (Van C) (Parcels  - Rochester, Northfleet, Chatham, Rainham, and Newington) (Detach at Strood)

Bogie Van (News – Strood, & stations to Maidstone West, Mail – Strood) (Detach at Strood)

Brake Van (Van C) (Parcels – Maidstone West) (Detach at Strood)

 

Some of these vehicles are already made by Hornby, i.e.  (Van B & Van C) and others by Bachmann (PLV). The 3 coach corridor set was probably a Maunsell set formed  BTK-CK-BTK (also made by Hornby) so it is possible to accurately create this train in model form, with a Hornby Schools or a King Arthur on the front.