Three Way Point Issues

[AncientMariner]

I have just installed 2 three way points on my layout. They are represented in my Railmaster mimic diagram as 2 normal points each, as in the RM example and shown below. In this case, both 3-way points are set to the centre, straight through, option. For the right-to-left point, the direction arrows are correct, but in the left-to-right point the arrows are incorrectly set left and right. The points both operate correctly, but the incorrect arrows are somewhat disconcerting. 

 

I note that the 3-Way Point has been the subject of earlier topics, but they seem to have petered out without resolution. 

 

Am I doing something wrong? Has anyone else come across this weirdness? Why does the direction of the point affect the apparent settings - all settings seem tp be correct on the ground?

 

Your collective thoughts would be welcome,

 

AM

/media/tinymce_upload/b2c25b39fedab51b0c04e589357fb869.PNG

[Chrissaf]

On the two point motors where the direction arrows do not match the actual position of the point. Physically reverse the two coil wires on the point motor. This is easier to do at the accessory decoder end. If using Hornby point motor wire colours this would be the red & green wires or the red and black wires if using Peco colours.

.

If using R8247 accessory decoders this would be the + & - terminals, leaving the C terminal untouched.

.

By physically reversing the wires, the point motor positions will match the direction shown by the RM indicators.

.

[AncientMariner]

Is that the same as reversing the polarity in Railmaster?

 

AM

[Chrissaf]

In essence Yes, see extract from manual below.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/ec4283e3967db0167fb1b0df5374521b.jpg

.

However, my preference would be to have it wired correctly as it is such a minimal change to make on the Accessory Decoder. That way you don't have to keep remembering that you have a couple of points configured differently in RM. Should for example, some time in the distant future you decide to change your controller technology.

[AncientMariner]

Chris,

 

I have reversed polarity as you suggest in RM so that I can change back and forth to experiment. Now the straight through works correctly, but left and right turnouts are mirrored. So we have swapped 1 error for 2! I don't understand why the right-to-left points work correctly, but the left-to-right case doesn't. This is the 3-way with the LEFT turnout selected:

/media/tinymce_upload/26c93c716d00687bc5199b504a0c07df.PNG

 

I think this is where previous threads stop. It seems to me that RM doesn't cater for 3-way points in all situations. Unless that is I'm doing something wrong. One for HRMS I think.

 

Thanks for your help

 

AM 

[Chrissaf]

Restore the 'reverse polarity' option in RM back to what it was before and physically reverse the point motor wires (one motor at a time) until you get them all back into sync. Assuming R8247's it is only two screw terminal wires that need modification. I don't consider this a particularly difficult or onerous task to perform.

.

In other words, start with the situation where RM displays the point operation correctly (even if the point itself isn't in the right position). Then amend the point wiring until the point positions syncs with the RM display.

[AncientMariner]

Chris,

 

This looks like being very close to Einstein's definition of insanity  😀, but I will try and report back.

 

AM

[AncientMariner]

Chris,

 

Einstein's definition of insanity is confirmed. I changed the hardwired polarity of the point motors on the left-to-right 3-way point so that the direction arrows were correct when the point is set to straight through, and the direction arrows are still mirrored when the point is set to turn out left or right. This confirms what you said earlier: reversing the polarity in RM is the same as reversing the wiring polarity. For some unknown reason, it seems like the right-to-left situation works, but the left-to-right doesn't. Seems a bit weird to me and I can't figure out why.

 

AM

[Chrissaf]

Are you using RM ProPack and have any configurations along the lines of secondary point switching. In other words points are linked in RM so that switching one switches the other. Or perhaps a configuration using 'routes' to which these points are members. Or do you have to switch each individual point motor manually and individually to choose straight ahead or bear left or bear right.

.

If so, I think it is going to be a case of going back to basics and remove all excess configurations so that the points need to be manually and individually switched within RM, get that working first, then build in any configuration complexity you need a step at a time, so that each change can be tested before moving on.

[AncientMariner]

Chris,

 

I am using ProPack, and I do have routes defined as you ask. I'll remove all and do as you suggest. I'm not expecting success though  ☹️.

 

AM

 

[Chrissaf]

A.M

.

Since your issue seems to be one of incorrect synchronisation between what is displayed in RM on your track plan and the actual route that is created through your 3 way point. And given that just reversing the throwing direction of the two point motors (shown A & B on the image below) did not resolve the issue. Then it could be that you have got the two A & B point motors reversed. In other words, when you operate the point in RM to operate point motor A, it is point motor B that is operating and vice versa.

.

This theory could be checked and confirmed by reversing the point addresses allocated to the two points in the RM track plan. Say for example the first point is currently address 5 and the second point in the RM plan is address 6. Then make point (5) address 6 and point (6) address 5. Substitute my example addresses with the ones you are actually using.

.

You may optionally also need to combine this with changing the point reverse 'check boxes' as well to get every thing back into sync.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/ea1288e81ced2fc77ac6764e167c668f.jpg

.

[AncientMariner]

Chris,

 

Interesting theory, I will check and report.

 

AM

[Chrissaf]

AM,

Potentially more evidence to support my theory above. The 3 way Y point has a quite complicated action and involves the two point motors working together to create a route through them. I notice that the two points deployed on your RM track plan for the correctly working 'Right to Left' direction are opposite to your incorrectly synchronised 'Left to Right' direction. This reversal may be the crux of your issue. It may be a requirement that the A & B point motors in my earlier image are specifically deemed to be either a turn right or turn left point for the purpose of synchronisation, if this makes sense to you. Anyway review image below to see what I am trying to convey, I have represented the two point configurations vertically to make it easier to compare them.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/f1a9a9fedfb2b3924c03324e88d12bb5.jpg

.

By reversing the point motor addresses as per my previous reply, this should logically reverse the position of the two points in RM, even though they still display as shown. In other words, in logic terms, the turn left point motor becomes a turn right point motor and the turn right point motor becomes a turn left point motor.

.

As before, only a theory to be proven or not as the case may be.

.

Worst case scenario would be that you have to redraw your track plan so that you can swap over the positions of the two points representing the incorrectly synchronised 'Left to Right' 3 way point.

[AncientMariner]

Chris,

 

 I've already confirmed that the right point motor is associated with the right RM entry, Looking at the right to left point atm the point is doing exactly what RM is showing. 

 

So I'll now try your latest theory. It looks reasonable to me.

 

AM

[96RAF]

I presume you have read the RM manual pages 88 and 89 specific to setting up a three-way point (Pro-Pack only).

[AncientMariner]

RAF 96,

 

RTFM eh? Or in my case, it's usually when all else fails RTFM 😀. I had read it and also used the example in RM - but note - it doesn't mention the direction arrows, nor explain why in right-to-left points direction arrows work correctly (the example), but left- to-right don't. At least, in my case left-to-right direction arrows don't work. It's quite possible that this is just the way it is, but I'm trying to explore all explanations.

 

AM

[AncientMariner]

Chris,

 

Good news and bad news.

 

Good news: mimic diagram amended so that the left-to-right 3-way point is now the same as the right-to-left.

/media/tinymce_upload/8398aefbd47462a12ffd0857830adccb.PNG

Bad news: direction arrows are unchanged and still wrong on the left-to-right 3-way.

 

Note: in the mimic diagram above, both 3-way points are set to straight through.

 

Set to turn left

/media/tinymce_upload/25e719c8de179dc354f7a4024bda2ce4.PNG

set to turn right

 

/media/tinymce_upload/43b4b48a1a3a4182cb890e956f837d2e.PNG

 

Is this what you had in mind?

AM

 

[Tarabuses]

No, that is not just the way it is.  I use three way points with RM and the direction arrows work correctly in all directions. 

[96RAF]

Just to be clear for the benefit of others following this thread and maybe wondering which point arrows you are on about - are we talking about the blue lines on the track that indicate point setting or are we talking about those arrows on the point selection buttons, which I find are of no use whatsoever as they are not instinctive, they do not point in the right direction nor can they be reconfigured to do so.

 

The blue lines will when all is set correctly follow the selected point direction.

 

The button arrows should in my opinion point in the direction of travel, hence along the track or at an angle in the case of the turnout. Whether the track on plan is horizontal or vertical then the same applies. This orientation should be automatic upon placing the point button onto a point on the plan.

Rob

[AncientMariner]

No, that is not just the way it is.  I use three way points with RM and the direction arrows work correctly in all directions. 

OK if you could be so kind as to explain what I have got wrong with my left-to-right 3-way point which shows incorrect direction arrows. Please put us all out of our misery.

 

The points work just fine btw - it's the direction arrows that are the problem.

AM

[AncientMariner]

Just to be clear for the benefit of others following this thread and maybe wondering which point arrows you are on about - are we talking about the blue lines on the track that indicate point setting or are we talking about those arrows on the point selection buttons, which I find are of no use whatsoever as they are not instinctive, they do not point in the right direction nor can they be reconfigured to do so.

 

The blue lines will when all is set correctly follow the selected point direction.

 

The button arrows should in my opinion point in the direction of travel, hence along the track or at an angle in the case of the turnout. Whether the track on plan is horizontal or vertical then the same applies. This orientation should be automatic upon placing the point button onto a point on the plan.

Rob

 

Just to clarify, the problem is with the blue direction arrows on the left-to-right 3-way point. I absolutely agree with all that you say about the buttons.

 

AM

[Tarabuses]

Sorry, but I can't explain why your blue arrows are not pointing to the correct route direction other than to agree with Chrissaf's suggestions.

My reason for posting my message was to answer what I thought was a question by you as to whether incorrect indications were "just the way it is" in RM.

[Chrissaf]

This seems to defy all logic. If I am looking at your screen shots correctly. The point indicators seem to show correctly for the turn left and turn right positions. It is only the straight ahead that are out of sync.

.

As the 'right to left' direction 3 way is working 100% correctly, then logic would dictate that there is a basic configuration issue with the 'left to right' direction.

.

There are eight possible configuration permutations. Since these can all be done from within RM 'layout design screen' then I would work through all eight possible permutations until the correct one is found. The eight permutations are:

.

Permutation 1 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

.

Permutation 2 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

.

Permutation 3 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

.

Permutation 4 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

.

Then reverse the point DCC addresses and repeat for permutations 5 to 8

.

Permutation 5 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

.

Permutation 6 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

.

Permutation 7 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'unticked'.

.

Permutation 8 of 8

Left Hand point DCC address 83 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

and

Right Hand point DCC address 81 with reverse check box 'ticked'.

.

I suggest printing off this reply and (if you excuse the pun) ticking off the permutations as you work through them one at a time.

.

Looking at your multiple screen shots and if I was a betting man I would be putting my money on one of the permutations between 5 and 8 being the correct one. I believe that your observed actual point route vs the displayed point positions fit in with the point addresses being the wrong way round.

.

If none of the eight possible permutations correct the issue, then I am stumped.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi AM,

When you swapped the positions of the left-to-right points on your diagram, did the red/green buttons move with them or did you leave them where they were?

Ray

[St1ngr4y]

Having looked closer at your image, I see that the buttons on the points have moved with the points, and that address 81 is now to the left of address 83. Would it be worth trying to swap the buttons around? Try dragging buttons 81 into a blank area of the display, then drag either of the buttons 83 to the centre of the left point so that they snap into position, then drag one of the 81 buttons to the centre of the right point.

Ray