Britannia Front Bogie Derail

[RDS]

I have recently purchased a vintage Britannia R063 loco manufactured 1976-9 which is in v.good condition and is an excellent runner.

However it dislikes all of my curved points and on removing the bogie (which has 4 wheels)and moving it manually over the point it is clear that it is jumping the frog. I have noted that If I exert some gentle downward pressure on the bogie it then negotiates the point OK.

I have an Evening Star R065 (which has 2 bogie wheels) and Intercity both of similar vintage and they are fine on these points.

I have noticed that the bogey on the Britannia is very floppy and unlike the Evening Star there is no spring??

The back to back measure on the Britannia bogie looks to be the same as the Evening Star and there is no apparent damage to the axles etc.

Has anyone experienced these problems and found a fix and I am likely to experience similar problems with any 4.6.2 loc?

[Chrissaf]

Enter "curved points" without the " " marks in the 'Search Forums' box and you will find several topic titles dedicated to them. A couple of them relate to 'derailments'. Then click the 'Search by Post Content' button to find more.

[The son of Triangman]

Check the back to back measurement of the bogie wheels. It should be 14.5mm or there abouts. The bogie doesn't have a spring, old Brits seldom give trouble over curved points. Another thing is the bogie link arm that is attached to the bogie, people "adust" them sometimes to compensate for poor trackwork then you inherit their bodge. Also how old are the points, the flangeways of R.8000 current Hornby points are shallower than the older R.640/641 curved points. Older locos tend not to like the R.8000 series points due to the shallower flangeways.

[richardthomson655]

Thank you for the advice I thought I was being safe purchasing a vintage loco. I have recently changed my old curved points to 8000 because I wanted to electrify them. What I cannot understand is why my Evening Star is fine but Britannia is not. I will check the back to back but perhaps you could tell me how to  adjust it if necessary? If not Is there anything I should do to the points? Thank you.

[The son of Triangman]

The bogie wheels can be moved on the axles with great care so it is possible to adjust them. Check the bogie link too to see if has been messed with.

You can motorise the old R.640/641 points using R.663/ 664 surface mount point motors.  R.8000 points can have the flangeway depth adjusted with a fine needle file.

[morairamike]

 Sometimes this is down to old style wheel profiles running on new style track. Also the wheel guide between the outside rails and the frog can be part of the problem. If there is too much of a gap between the outside rail inside edge and the guide rail then the bogie can move towards the frog and ride up on it. I have seen on railway sites where decreasing the gap prevents this.

[Mico11]

This subject comes up regularly as Chrissaf advises earlier and it is such a pity that having bought a lovely old loco then comes the problem with points. Especially when you do not want to consider modifications to either the loco or track.

As a rule of thumb,from an obviously fully experienced member here, not me, he offers the following advice:-

HORNBY – Locos with 3 digit model number ie R063 potentially have deep flanged wheels, whereas those with 4 digit model numbers ie R1063 do not.

There are problems with deep flanges on old locos, typically with Peco 100 points and some Hornby points. See earlier comments on this subject.

I appreciate this is all water under the bridge for you, but to anyone reading this, it is a consideration well worth noting. After all the market is awash with old locos.

[richardthomson655]

This subject comes up regularly as Chrissaf advises earlier and it is such a pity that having bought a lovely old loco then comes the problem with points. Especially when you do not want to consider modifications to either the loco or track.

As a rule of thumb,from an obviously fully experienced member here, not me, he offers the following advice:-

HORNBY – Locos with 3 digit model number ie R063 potentially have deep flanged wheels, whereas those with 4 digit model numbers ie R1063 do not.

There are problems with deep flanges on old locos, typically with Peco 100 points and some Hornby points. See earlier comments on this subject.

I appreciate this is all water under the bridge for you, but to anyone reading this, it is a consideration well worth noting. After all the market is awash with old locos.

 

[richardthomson655]

Thanks for that advice good to know the difference. I am still puzzled though because my Evening Star is of similar vintage has similar deeper flanges but:  has no problem with these points but Britannia does. I need to check back to back measure on front bogies  but have got no idea of odds of  finding  them out from 14.5. Can't see' any obvious evidence of excess wear on the bogie wheels.

[Mico11]

Hello 655

You mention that you have changed to Hornby 8000 points recently and you have just bought an old loco.

SOT (4000+ posts) in an earlier post on this thread, advises old locos don't like 8000 points. Is this your problem diagnosed – probably.

I cant explain why similar locos don't have this problem but personally I would eliminate the 8000 theory before proceeding further.

It is always difficult for me in trying to determine a users potential model skill. I once tried to give my opinion to a member and then found out he was a model engineer. Hey!

Please advise the eventual outcome.

[trainlover23]

 The problem is far more likely to be back to back problems or bad track laying. Locos from that period usually take all modern Code100 point work .

[Rog RJ]

I would get yourself a back to back gauge, example http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DCDCG-BB145&style=&strType=&Mcode=DCC+Concepts+DCG-145 

or a digital caliper, example http://www.appliancespareswarehouse.co.uk/6-inch-digital-vernier-caliper-150mm-mis400.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwn_3GBRDc8rCnup-1x8wBEiQAdw3OAevj_-Vuq2rJDLfGXngaDHBIE2yscudOPLOlz6-xyW0aAmSV8P8HAQ 

 

Neither is too expensive and are always useful.  These are just examples, there are others available from different suppliers.

 

 The caliper can be used to measure the back to back (b2b) of a good runner, which may not be an exact 14.5mm, to allow you to set other wheelsets to the same measurment.

 

Also check that the metal link that the bogie is attached to is free to swivel side to side and hasn't been bent up or down at all.  Also check that the bogie isn't catching on the front coupling or detail parts, if fitted.  Free movement is essential.

[44712]

My brand new Flying Scotsman nearly always derails at front bogie or trailing carriage wnen negotiating points supplied with the set or extension packs.

[richardthomson655]

Hello 655

You mention that you have changed to Hornby 8000 points recently and you have just bought an old loco.

SOT (4000+ posts) in an earlier post on this thread, advises old locos don't like 8000 points. Is this your problem diagnosed – probably.

I cant explain why similar locos don't have this problem but personally I would eliminate the 8000 theory before proceeding further.

It is always difficult for me in trying to determine a users potential model skill. I once tried to give my opinion to a member and then found out he was a model engineer. Hey!

Please advise the eventual outcome.

 

[richardthomson655]

Thanks to all for the advice. The problem was the back to back on the front bogie wheels which look as if they had been replaced. Also one of my 8000 points was badly manufactured.