TV Suppression

[DEREK123]

Hi .... Why does my neighbour get TV interference when I run trains .... I don't get any ?

One of my TV's uses Freeview ( as does my neighbour ) so a loft aerial is used on this TV with no interference.  This TV is on a different fuse / circuit breaker to my main TV which is Sky satalite again with no interference

Do we have any TV engineers on the clubsite who maybe will solve this one .... (  NB .. my neighbour won't upgrade to cable or satalite ! )

Any suggestions other than move ?

Cheers

Derek

[tyneside emu]

Perhaps it maybe something the neighbour has which is causing the interference for them and interferes with trains suppressions

[2e0dtoeric]

Problems like this are almost always the receiving equipment at fault.

What tv is the neighbour using?

What kind of aerial?

Where is it located?

When was the co-axial cable from the antenna to the receiver last replaced? (usually never, and it is all green and manky inside!)

How far, roughly, is your railway from their antenna?

Are you running dc or DCC?

If you turn your railway power on, and DO NOT run anything, does the neighbour still get interference?

I'm not a tv engineer, but I AM a radio ham, and licensed to run 400 watts of power into my antennas, which is vastly more power than your railway can generate!

 

[walkingthedog]

Do your locos have capacitors fitted to suppress interference? 

[DEREK123]

lHi Tyneside emu , 2e0dtoeric & WTD

Thanks guys for the replys / ideas.

I will need to talk to my neighbour for his equipment details. It looks like he has a LOFT aerial, so I would questimate my setup could be as little as 7 metres away. 

I am only running DC

Most locos are fully suppressed .... but all locos give the interference ! .... only a few are NEW locos though.

I will get as much info from my neighbour as I can and update you.... thanks

Derek

[Rog RJ]

Do you use power clips for your track connections or do you have your power feeds soldered directly to the rails?

[DEREK123]

Hi RJ and thanks

I do have power wires soldered directly to the track ..can that make a difference ?

2e0dtoeric ... the interference is only when locos are running NOT when my setup etc is powered up.

Thanks

Derek

 

[Rog RJ]

Yes, having the wires soldered on can result in interference being experienced.  Electrically it is the best connection method but power clips for dc contain suppresion capacitors to deal with the interfence problem.  If you have a power clip, you can plug it into the track as near as possible to your power feeds and the capacitor inside it will (should) help cut the interference.  There is no need to have your power feeds connected to the power clip, the suppresion capacitor is still able to do it's job.  The other option is to solder a suppression capacitor to the rails.

 The reason for the capacitor in the point clips is that the rails and power feed wires can act as an aerial, effectively transmitting any interference into the ether.

[Chrissaf]

Derek123,

.

You wrote

I am only running DC

and

I do have power wires soldered directly to the track .

.

By having directly soldered wires to track on a DC layout, you have inadvertently removed the TV Suppression component included in the DC Analogue Power Track / Power Clip.

.

It does seem strange that his Freeview aerial service is affected but yours is not, but your Freeview set top box may have better tuner interference suppression. Either that, or his aerial down-lead is old and not good quality or adequately screened. Presumably, your layout is physically closer to your Freeview aerial than to his.

.

For the sake of your neighbour it is only fair that as you are generating the interference, that you try and resolve it at your end and reinstate the missing TV Suppressor to your track connection. There are two options:

.

Option 1) unsolder your track wires and reconnect via a Hornby R602 DC Analogue track power clip.

.

Option 2) Solder a 0.1uF 50v (or higher voltage) Ceramic Disc Capacitor across the track connecting wires at the position where they connect to your track. This is the same component as fitted inside the R602.

.

.

No guarantee that reinstating the suppressor will cure your neighbours TV interference, but it should certainly help with it.

.

If Option 1) or 2) don't work, maybe you could offer to pay to have his aerial or at least his coaxial down-lead replaced (with a double screened one) via a slightly different route (other side of his loft for example on the opposite side away from your party wall).

.

EDIT: I was busy writing my reply at the same time as Rog(RJ) was writing his. His got posted first, although both his and mine are similar in content. I decided to leave my reply (basically confirming what Rog wrote) intact. Roger's suggestion of fitting an un-terminated R602 Power Clip as close to the soldered wires as possible should in theory be a reasonably effective Option 3.

[DEREK123]

Hi RJ and Chris

Looks like this could be useful , or even the cure !!. ........ thanks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't have any R602's nor the capacitors but I will get some asap and come back to report progress .

Maplins stock an item ( see below ) is that suitable ?

0.1uF  Ceramic Disc Capacitor

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/decoupling-ceramic-disc-01uf-capacitor-n43cj?cmpid=ppc%3Aall_products%3Apla%3Agoogle&gclid=CNjtrN2VwNMCFbgK0wod7GYJkAValue

I want to get this problem sorted asap as I intend enlarging my layout.

You are all being so helpful ...  ( you have most likely guessed I am a complete novice with this type of thing )

Thanks

Derek

[Chrissaf]

Yes Derek, the Maplin component (Part number N43CJ) you have found will do the job.

[Castle-Man]

For convenience I am using wires soldered onto fishplates.  Short ones that then go to a terminal block.  Two sets for seperate track sections and controllers.

For best practice should I therefore solder a capacitor to each set.  Does the capacitor go between the live and neutral rails.  In fact could I connect it into the terminal block with the two wires and screwed together?  

[Chrissaf]

Only if your layout is DC Analogue, as suppressors need to be removed for DCC working. Assuming I have understood your description relating to your three questions correctly, then the answers are Yes, Yes and Yes.

.

As you say..."For best practice"......If you are not generating any interference to either your TV or your neighbours, then retro-fitting an interference suppressor is somewhat optional.

.

[DEREK123]

Hi Chris ( and RJ )

Sorry to be slow replying ,  I had to go out.

Thanks  ... hopefully I will get the capacitors tomorrow and let you know the result..

Cheers

Derek

[Castle-Man]

Chris I am running just DC.

As far as I know Interference is not a problem but it could be the sort of thing that you do not find out till later.  Don't want to nail everything down and then have to lift things later to add surpressors.  But if I run the wires straight to under the board and mount the terminal block joiner there I can just add the capacitor to that if needed. 

[DEREK123]

Hi .... a brief  update.

I spoke to ny neighbour this morning and here are the answers:

His aerial is 48 years old.

The cable was also installed 48 years ago and never replaced !.

It is a loft aerial.

It is about 3 metres from my property and in total about 5 metres from my trainsetup.

His reception etc. was fine before I started using my trains.

Derek

I forgot to ask about TV maker but he only uses Freeview.

 

Derek

[Chrissaf]

At 48 years old, the down-lead cable will be well past its 'sell by' date.

.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if at that age it was the old VHF (405 line) cable standard. The modern UHF (625 line) standard gives far better interference screening, particularly if double screened with foil as well as braid. The old VHF cable, typically only had loose braid and was a much thinner cable overall compared to the modern stuff.

[walkingthedog]

Trouble is it is still your problem not his. I had a similar problem for a while with my loft layout and my neighbours TV. His cable was not old. It stopped after I gave the track and wheels a good clean and got rid of the Relco. 

[Rog RJ]

The direction that the aerial is pointing needs to be considered too.  If your layout is in front of his aerial it is more likely to pick up interference than if the layout is at the back of the aerial as many TV aerials are designed to reject signals from the back. Nothing much you can do about that unfortunately but it may be a factor.

[DEREK123]

Hi Chris , WTD & RJ

I reckon that the age of the aerial instalation is most likely the source of this problem but I 'm not sure how it should be progressed ... is replacement / upgrade cost down to me or him ?

As I have not seen the aerial or cable I don't know its direction, type etc..... I will ask.

WTD what is " relco " ?' ... my track and wheels are pretty clean .... I tend to clean the track every 2 or 3 days. and wheels as required.

I have a Sky dish TV system and have no interference at all ( I was quoted £500 for a new complete aerial system 3 years ago !! - I decided on Sky !! ) ...... woulld you suggest similar for my neighbour ?

Cheers

Derek

[96RAF]

My answer to the neighbour would be 'what makes you think that your interference is my fault' and ask him to prove it by way of logged coincidental times and events, etc.

 

Not very neighbour friendly I admit, but there are times when you have to tell these obstructive people to '...go forth and multiply...'.

 

I had a neighbour who welcomed me to my new house with the greeting   '...get off my drive (I was trying to reverse my caravan onto my drive in a hammer-head close and just nudged his (actually the public) footpath by a car bumper and wheel's width in the attempt)  ... and I trust you wont be a pain in the ...xyz... like the previous occupant was...'

Needless to say him and me didn't get on after that and it was my vocation in life to make his life as much a pest as possible after that.

 

On the other side of the fence the neighbours there were really nice people and we made good friends with them for ever after.

 

Sorry to ramble on a bit but thats just me...

Rob

[walkingthedog]

Relco was an electronic track cleaner. Horrid thing.

 

Your neighbour didn't have a problem until you came along so I'm afraid it's down to you. He could report you for causing interference and you would be forced to do something about it. I'm not saying he would.

Do you know if it is anything in particular that is causing it? 

This might sound like a daft idea but how about putting up some tin foil or similar between you and his ariel. 

[NWR-Gordon-4]

@DEREK123

 

 

I am very suprised to here thatt when you run your trains, it interfears with your next door neighbour's TV! I didn't think that would be possible!

[Castle-Man]

Walkingthedog is the Guagemaster HF-1 and HF-2 the same as the Relco and therefore equally Horrible?

[geordi_q]

The aerial cable should be replaced first of all 

Try fitting a RF or UHF band pass filter should block the interference and stop it affecting signal.

This used to work a few years ago when fridges and other household appliances caused a problem

Try Maplins or amazon for them