Passing loop using both ports on ADS-2sx decoder.

[NormanQ4]

I have introduced a new loop to my layout using electrofrog points and have been having a number of problems with shorts, frog stalls, one set not firing when the other does and incorrect direction indicator arrow.

When I made adjustments to wiring, frog switching, set up etc. to correct one problem another emerged.

I decided to give up on that and use the second port on the decoder which was not being used so that I could use this to also power the frog, with one being port 5 and the other being port 50.

I now have a port dedicated to each point powering both the point and its frog.

This has been for the most part successful however switching point 5 does not move either the point or the direction indicator of point 50 and vice versa.

The other point signal details have been correctly completed after the decoder had been set accordingly to ports 5 and 50.

I had been following the “Point mimic direction wrong” thread and in fact also contributed to that thread, so was amazed when I started getting so much grief since I have set up loops before without incident after getting initial guidance from Ray.

Is the procedure different when using one port for each point instead of using one port to operate both points?

Over to you Ray (or anyone else with a solution).

[St1ngr4y]

No Norman, there should be no difference except that there will be a one second or so delay between the first and second points firing, which then ties in with the route indicators moving on the screen.

So, each pair of buttons successfully switches its own point ok, both actual and on-screen, but does not operate the "other point" ?

Ray

[NormanQ4]

Yes, that's right Ray they work perfectly when switched independently.

I thought that there would be no difference but I'm stumped with this outcome.

[St1ngr4y]

Yes, that's right Ray they work perfectly when switched independently.

I thought that there would be no difference but I'm stumped with this outcome.

 

Could you post images of the two point configurations in the layout designer window, just in case there's something you haven't spotted.

Ray

[NormanQ4]

/media/tinymce_upload/652e9daa9bf851c90a9d333eb55f4685.png/media/tinymce_upload/42c9a752d76d5fa12679062f77256cd2.png

Hi Ray, it looks okay to me 

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Norman,

I have configured two points on a test layout plan with exactly the same details as yours - address, decoder make, startup position, other points, and even reverse polarity. They work fine on the layout diagram, but this is on my second copy of RM on a computer not connected to a controller. Tomorrow I will repeat the exercise on my operational computer.

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

Idle question without having checked in Design mode - how come there are no direction indicators on your points?

[NormanQ4]

Hi Fishy, I could be wrong but I don't recall ever seeing direction indicators in design mode.

I believe this would be a handy feature, since when the test buttons are pressed the only indication of point direction is to watch for point movement.

If anyone knows how to make this work, please share. 

[St1ngr4y]

Good morning Norman,

I created a new layout plan on my operational Railmaster pc containing only a passing loop. I have a point 5 on my layout but no point 50 so I used point 6 in place of point 50:-

 

/media/tinymce_upload/99ae9382e8ebbfeff93740a981c85f59.png

The top image shows the two configuration windows for the points, and the bottom two images show the route indicators on the points before and after switching. These work fine whichever one of the four buttons is pressed and the actual points fire correctly also.

 

Clutching at straws ... Do you have an entry in your INI file Points timer=    ?

I have mine set as Points timer=0.25. It specifies the amount of time in seconds that RM will pause between each point firing.

Other than that, I am stumped ☹️

 

Ray 

[NormanQ4]

Good evening Ray.

Thanks for your efforts.

My Points timer was set to 0.25 so I changed it to 0.75 as you suggested, Unfortunately no luck.

Just before I got your message I did a clear out of all the information regarding these two points.

Turned off RM.

Turned off Elink.

Turned off PC.

Then re-entered all the info again on the clean slate and everything is as it was before ie. no interaction between 5 and 50.

[Chrissaf]

Norman,

Also clutching at straws here, but when you re-entered all the configuration info again. Did you go the whole hog and delete the original buttons, then re-attach them and observe the SNAPPING action I have previously documented. This snapping action is very important to get right when one has these type of operational issues.

[St1ngr4y]

Another straw grasped.....

 

The layout you are editing ..... you do have that same plan as your live layout, don't you?

 

Ray

[NormanQ4]

Chris, It was my intention to delete the original buttons but I did forget that part of my plan, however I have done that previously without success.

But I will do it all again and next time delete the buttons.

Ray, it's the same plan.

 

With all this straw, at least I'll have somewhere comfortable to lie down.

[NormanQ4]

I deleted the original point buttons then repeated the procedure that I mentioned before.

Still no change, neither point 5 nor point 50 influences the other.

I have sent a help request to RM support.

Thank you both for your efforts up to now and I will keep you informed of the outcome.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Norman,

Here's a thought. How about doing what I did - create a brand new layout containing only the passing loop using the same addresses 5 & 50. Save it with a new name then make that your main screen layout. If this works then your main layout plan file may be corrupted in some way, or you might have duplicated points and/or buttons on top of each other, or something like that. It may be worth a try...

Ray

[Chrissaf]

An excellent idea Ray.....I seem to recall a previous track plan issue (nothing to do with passing loops) was found using that technique. Rogue points with conflicting configurations had somehow been saved on the plan outside the visible screen.

[NormanQ4]

I had thought previously that duplicates sitting on top of originals may have occurred so I highlighted a whole block of items around and including each point then dragged it aside which would have left any duplicate in place on the plan, however, no duplicates were found, just grid lines.

 

At 4.00am this morning I woke up and remembered some other details which occurred prior to me using one decoder port for each point.

Previously I had been trying to operate both point motors from the one port with point 5 frog powered from the decoder and point 50 frog powered from the point motor switch.

With this method I had as mentioned in my OP many issues regarding shorts, frog stalls, failed point operation etc. etc.

One thing that came to mind this morning was that both points did, sort of, operate simultaneously.  I’ll try to remember as best I can the events associated with this.

All four point buttons operated point 5.

Point 5 buttons operated point 50.

Point 50 buttons did not operate point 50 but did operate point 5.

When point 50 operated there was a click when the switch blade was thrown against the rail and then after about one second there was a quieter click which moved the switch blade back about 2 millimetres from the rail where it stayed.  This occurred on both left and right operation.

Another strange thing was when the point 50 direction indicator was in the straight ahead position the line was actually in two parts with a slight dog-leg in the middle.

Initially the decoder had been located nearer to point 5 than point 50 so it was moved to be equidistant.

The wiring to point 50 had been slightly lighter than to point 5 so all wiring was changed to be the same at 13 x 0.12.

None of this made any difference so the decision was made to use both ports on the decoder, with one port for each point.

In this new set up everything works as it should with the exception of point 5 not controlling point 50 and vice versa

The rest as the saying goes is history, unfortunately history is repeating.

I’ve spent many hours on this and was thinking there was now light at the end of the tunnel with one final step to be made, I just didn’t think that the step would be so big.

I will try as Ray suggested.

[NormanQ4]

I set up a new passing loop track plan as suggested by Ray and it performs in the same way as my track plan.

Point 5 does not operate point 50 and vice versa, but they function perfectly when used independently.

Hopefully RM support can identify the problem since it seems to be related to my copy of RM.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Norman,

With reference to your last-but-one post, when you had the points configured with point 50 as a "ghost", both points would have been wired to port 5 on the decoder. This means that when the point 5 buttons are pressed, both physical points should fire simultaneously, and the point 5 route indicator should move at the same time. Then "Points timer=" seconds later the route indicator should move for point 50. When the point 50 buttons are pressed, the point 50 route indicator should move first, then "Points timer=" seconds later, both of the physical points should fire and the point 5 route indicator should move.

With your new setup, pressing point 5 buttons should fire point 5 and move its route indicator, then "Points timer=" seconds later, point 50 should fire and move its route indicator. And...pause for breath..., pressing point 50 buttons should fire point 50 and move its route indicator, then "Points timer=" seconds later, point 5 should fire and move its route indicator.

This is baffling - I hope HRMS can come up with a solution for you.

 Another thought - have you re-downloaded and installed RM from the link on this Forum?

Ray

[NormanQ4]

Hi Ray, the last download that I did was on 11 April.

I did another one a few minutes ago and created a new test loop, unfortunately no change.

[Chrissaf]

One final straw clutching moment from me. Is the 'Set Points' check box ticked on the System Settings General Screen.

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/media/tinymce_upload/9ce6524ea937bb239cfe67525811d291.jpg

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[NormanQ4]

Hi Chris, yes points are set. If only it were that simple.

HRMS have just been in touch and are going to log into my PC.

[NormanQ4]

Finally fixed after one hour

I would never have worked this out. have a look at the screen shots/media/tinymce_upload/45083158aa5c0981e859efca5255c7b5.png/media/tinymce_upload/0c1002446251002047cfe1ed97b75b87.png

Use colons after Points

Select Hornby decoders instead of DCC concepts

Remove reverse polarity selection and reverse wiring instead.

Reverse polarity of frogs.

Tech reckoned that the wiring of the points would not affect the polarity of the frogs, but it did.

He said the loco, the point or the motor were the problem but he was wrong.

The polarity of the points has a direct bearing on the polarity of the frogs.

Locos, points and motors are just fine, frog polarity had to be matched with point direction.

He said the changes that he had made could not possibly have a bearing on the shorting. It did.

[NormanQ4]

This issue has finally been resolved thanks to HRMS.

I doubt that anyone not from HRMS would have come up with the bizarre solution.

I have posted screen shots of the new points set ups which can be compared to my points set ups.

Prepare to be surprised.

Awaiting moderation.

[Chrissaf]

We may have to wait until Monday now to see that....Hornby have a POETS day at 3PM on Fridays.

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Never heard of a POETS Friday.....Push Off Early, Tomorrows Saturday.