My right hand points are winding me up

[Mat the Mosher]

I have a right hand point that the points motor will only switch one way. I am on analogue and I have independently tested the points motor on another set of points wires which work correctly and then it works perfectly well! showing there is no fault in the motor, or the switch. I have also tested the hornby points switch which is again working perfectly well.

I have fiddled around with this for 2 days now and am banging my head a little bit against a wall. All my points motors are hornby, all my stuff is brand new and I am using new gauge master red/green/black wiring

1) what do you think I am doing wrong?

2) I have another 4 sets of points to wire up and I don't want to have the same mistake happen on the others 

thanks in advance,

MTM

[Chrissaf]

If I understand your post text correctly.

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You have three elements to your point installation:

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1. A point motor
2. A Hornby points switch (R044?)
3. Three way point wiring extension by G.M.

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However if you substitute item 3 with different wiring it works.

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If my understanding is correct, then surely the logical conclusion is that there is an issue with the G.M three wire extender.

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I am assuming that you know what you are doing and have used appropriate wire termination techniques. But since we cannot see what you can see, then some close up photographs of the components and method of installation will be highly beneficial to us in order to offer more targeted advice.

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Although unlikely, it is possible that one of the G.M wires has got a hidden break inside the insulation that cannot be seen.

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This is one of those situations where a Digital Multi-Meter (DMM) would be really beneficial to perform diagnostic tests. Cheap DMMs can be purchased off ebay for less than £7 delivered.

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Usually, the most common reason for a point to only operate in one direction is 'crossed wiring'. See this other post published earlier today for details. But I assume that the wiring configuration of the faulty point is a copy of the point that is working, so one would expect that you would be more likely to cross the wiring of all the points rather than just one in isolation.

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/point-only-operates-in-one-direction/

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You didn't say what model of Hornby point motor. The R8014 or the R8243. If the R8243, then the operation of this motor can be affected by over tightening the mounting screws. Slacken the screws off so that you can just detect movement of the motor with finger pressure. Motor alignment is super critical. If the R8014 motor is off alignment by even a millimetre then consistent both way operation can be affected. If the R8014 is fixed to the underside of the point using the factory included mounting lugs, then you can be assured that the alignment will be 100% correct. Alignment is more of an issue if there is a baseboard sandwiched between the point and the motor.

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Does the point itself operate correctly in both directions when operated by hand?

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In other words, is there any indication that the physical operation of the point is sticky and that the moving switch rails fight against being switched in one direction.

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There should be slight toggle action and the moving rails should flip over to the other side once past the half way position. This is easier to test if the point motor is not attached.

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Q1 - What power source are you using for operating the point motor? (state the power source specification).

Q2 - Are you using a CDU? (Capacitor Discharge Unit).

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If you are using a CDU. Note that Hornby R044 switches are not 100% compatible for use with a CDU. Using a CDU & Hornby R044 switch combination could very well potentially give the symptoms you describe. The reason for this incompatibility is described about half way down this page linked below.

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https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical_Page_2.html#Bookmark4

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All the comments above represents some of the things that you need to check for to progress your issue further. Please also provide an answer to the 2 supplementary questions.

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TIP: As this is your very first post, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

[ColinB]

I think I know what you might have got wrong, you have got the green wire in the wrong place. I only use Peco point motors but they are are all roughly the same. The motor is two coils, of which one end of each coil is connected together or they should be, the green goes to this commoned bit. If by chance you put the black or red to the commoned part and green to the other end, then only one coil would operate. The other thing is you don't say which points you are using. With Peco point motors you have to connect the two common ends of the coil yourself, I don't know if Hornby points have this connection made already, if not this may also be an issue. If you got any documentation with the point, find out which are the right connections. Green should be common, red is power one way, black is the other way. As I say I haven't checked lately but the middle connection is not always the common one. Hope that helps. Sometimes it is useful to use a 12 volt bulb or led with a resistor. A multimer is not always that good as sometimes the filtering within the instrument will not show a quick voltage change, with a bulb you should see it flicker. If if isn't attached to the point, check the motor works on its own, then at least you know it works. Then if it doesn't work when attached to the point it is probably an alignment issue. The other issue is if you are using a capacitor discharge system, wait a bit of time before you flick the point one way then the other. Sometimes it takes a bit of time for the capacitor to charge up.

Hope this helps.

[Chrissaf]

MTM,

You have just wasted your second newbie post (now removed) by ignoring my TIP advice at the end of my reply and clicking the 'Blue Quote' button. Please write your reply in the 'Reply Text Box' at the very bottom of the page and click the 'Green Reply' button instead.

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It is now likely that you won't be able to post again until tomorrow.

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PS - With regard my suggestion to use a DMM to diagnose your issue. Just to clarify. I meant to recommend that the DMM meter be used to confirm the continuity of the wires and circuit using the 'resistance function' of the DMM. Not to measure voltage, which Colin correctly mentions that the meter measuring latency may not be low (fast) enough to accurately detect a voltage pulse.

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ColinB, you wrote you use PECO point motors and you also wrote

Green should be common, red is power one way, black is the other way.

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That wire colour configuration is indeed correct for PECO points, but is incorrect for Hornby point motors (which the OP stated he was using). Hornby use 'Black' as the common return.

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[ColinB]

Actually I didn't know that, why use black it is not as if it is positive and negative. So what colour do Hornby use as the other feed, surely not green, that goes against every convention. To be quite honest you could use any colour, as long as you know which is which, but I assume Hornby in their intructions clearly identify the colours, so I suppose you need to stick to convention. I usually always bring mine out to a 3 way "chocolate block connector" and it it is so easy to sometimes get the central connection wrong, especially when you are crawling under the baseboard. It is funny with points, they all seem to try to improve the motors and seem to make them worse. I think it is gaugemaster, that added the screw on terminal to their equivalent of the PL10, so that now you can no longer mount it directly under the point without making a huge hole, perhaps one of those micro connectors would have been a better choice. Oh, and because of the connector you can no longer add a switch to drive a relay etc. Personally those lever switches of Hornby and Peco are horrible, not always working reliably, something out of the 1950's, especially if you haven't used them for a while, at least Peco do not use those push in connectors that fall out all the time. I tried using them because I thought they were a visual indication of the points, but gave up. Biased switches seem to be the way, and there are poeple that even make PCBs to mount them on, which for 7 switches is cheaper than the manufacturers ones, they also have screw terminals. I normally do my own wiring, but these were so good that I now use them. There are even people that make LED display boards to show where the points switches are set.  

[Chrissaf]

Hornby point motor wiring convention is Black for common return, Red for switch to the left & Green for switch to the right. See R8014 point motor instruction extract below.

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/media/tinymce_upload/bc9af3a64b9ce2e88c2223577b78341c.jpg

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To add even more confusion. Hornby use the same three colours for the R406 signal, but this time Green is the common return. See extract from R406 instructions.

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/media/tinymce_upload/34def5a57677292690d70ada3ed0cafa.jpg

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There is no rhyme or reason to this cack handed logic. Particularly when you consider the R406 is a Red / Green signal. It would have made more sense to use Black as common, Green for the Green light and Red for the Red light.

[ColinB]

Obviously, two different people (I won't call them Engineers) working on it. This probably dates back to the 60's and Triang, and probably developed at different times. You would have thought they would standardise on a set of colours, by now, it would save on confusion and documentation.The thing that really anoys me about this, yes, I can work it out, but there are a significant number of people that model that can't, so make it as easy as possible. I always seem to be knocking them, but them and that place in Devon really need to move into the 21st century as far as electrics go, perhaps they should "outsource" it to that firm in Settle, Yorkshire (I know their name) who seem to be going forward into the 21st Century, with parts that are better designed and modern.

[96RAF]

Why are the wires going into the point mechanism?

 

They also used brown wires.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

In a strange way, the Hornby point wiring colours make sense.

 

Left is Port, which is red...

 

Right is Starboard, which is green.

 

International collision avoidance regulations, for seagoing vessels! 😉

 

Then the live feed to the switch is brown..

And the common return is black.

 

Chris is right about the colour light signal...

Crazy logic.

 

I will have to check what colour wires did what under Tri-ang for the old signal.

 

Interesting thing is, some old Tri-ang Hornby black lever switches (RT.44, etc) actually had green and red dots added to identify the standard output connexions.

 

As to the Hornby wiring diagram...

 

The wires are not really going to the point, but to the point motor, which is UNDER the point! 😉

[96RAF]

 

As to the Hornby wiring diagram...

The wires are not really going to the point, but to the point motor, which is UNDER the point!

 

Or ALONGSIDE it on top seeing as it is from the blurb for a surface mounted motor.

Not very helpful given it is well hidden and the wires apparently connect to the sleepers.

Who dreams up these cartoons.

 

[ColinB]

As I said before you can have any colour, I use red for positive, black for negative and green for common, because the point is switched positve and then negative. So the red and black wires are feeds and green is the common return. I did used to use yellow. blue and green so I didn't confuse it with power feeds, but found I needed yellow and blue for switches attached to the point motors, with white as common. It really doesn't make much difference. Trouble is as I have said before, there are an awful lot of people that don't understand electrics, so really there should be a universal standard for all manufacturers of point motors. From all this data that is probably what the guy that posted this original article is doing wrong, mixing up the green and black wires, that would explain the point only switching one way.

[Mat the Mosher]

Well folks, thanks for all of the useful guidance, I am dyslexic which I suppose doesn't help things much either. But thanks to retesting the wiring as suggested I am now the owner of 3 working under board motors, which is a vast improvement on the one and a half from Sunday. 3 more to do and then I am on to scenery.

I have found that there is loads of great guidance in our rail community, when I am further on I will post a piccy or two. I will be sure to get a tester too, as that would have saved me retiring long hand and trying them all out.

i found having a dummy set of wires that worked was great for testing everything before adding it, at least then I could pinpoint it to the wiring, not the kit.

Again, thanks for all the useful comments and help, it has spurred me on!

[Mat the Mosher]

Well thanks to all of your help I have all 6 sets of points working, I am using a peco book of track designs and am using the design for the beer station double oval.

its been easier than I thought it would be after the first couple of points. I am now going to start the diorama..

[Chrissaf]

How about some photos of your progress. You could add them to the 'Let's see your layout' thread (note that there are more photos in the later thread pages).

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How to post a photo.

[Rew]

Hornby point motor wiring convention is Black for common return, Red for switch to the left & Green for switch to the right. See R8014 point motor instruction extract below.

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/media/tinymce_upload/bc9af3a64b9ce2e88c2223577b78341c.jpg

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To add even more confusion. Hornby use the same three colours for the R406 signal, but this time Green is the common return. See extract from R406 instructions.

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/media/tinymce_upload/34def5a57677292690d70ada3ed0cafa.jpg

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There is no rhyme or reason to this cack handed logic. Particularly when you consider the R406 is a Red / Green signal. It would have made more sense to use Black as common, Green for the Green light and Red for the Red light.

Hi,

Would the 16v output work with old Hornby Dublo colour light signalling? Or would it blow the lamps?

Regards,

Andrew

[Chrissaf]

Sorry .... I know nothing about Hornby Dublo Colour Lights .. but in general many model railway products of that particular design era were designed around a 15/16 volt AC power source.

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It would be appreciated if you didn't use the 'Blue Button' to make posts. As you can see above, your latest post was held back for image approval as a direct result of using the 'Blue Button'.

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TIP: As a relative newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[96RAF]

You would be better starting a new post about your query as ths topic is originally about points not lights. The illustration of lights wIring was purely to show that the colour code is different between lights and point motors.