PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote]From memory of the original setup info there is no LD bus, the sensors are connected to the module by radial wiring per sensor to module ports.[/quote] Hi RAF96 Connected by Radial wiring? Is this not one connected to another like a long spur? I am showing my lack of knowledge here! As I always say... If you are not sure ask. If you don't ask you may never find out ;o) PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote] [quote]From memory of the original setup info there is no LD bus, the sensors are connected to the module by radial wiring per sensor to module ports.[/quote] Connected by Radial wiring? Is this not one connected to another like a long spur? [/quote] Hi PJ, Radial wiring is normally a long spur but I think the clue is in the words 'per sensor' so in this case I assume it means a radial spur for each sensor to the module ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 What ever happened to DCC and its 'simpler' wiring. How many ports does the module have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote] [quote] [quote]From memory of the original setup info there is no LD bus, the sensors are connected to the module by radial wiring per sensor to module ports.[/quote] Connected by Radial wiring? Is this not one connected to another like a long spur? [/quote] Hi PJ, Radial wiring is normally a long spur but I think the clue is in the words 'per sensor' so in this case I assume it means a radial spur for each sensor to the module ports.[/quote] Per sensor, well picked up. But, radial wiring going round an oval track would be no different to two spurs from the controller would it not? Except creating two shorrtere runs in each direction of similar lengths. This would surely be no different from the point of view of small packets of data being sent down the line that that of one long length would it? So I would have thought it should be more effecient as two spurs. By the time we get to this stage we are in effect creating a LD Bus? Or am I missing something here, possible? PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote] [quote] [quote]From memory of the original setup info there is no LD bus, the sensors are connected to the module by radial wiring per sensor to module ports.[/quote] Connected by Radial wiring? Is this not one connected to another like a long spur? [/quote] Hi PJ, Radial wiring is normally a long spur but I think the clue is in the words 'per sensor' so in this case I assume it means a radial spur for each sensor to the module ports.[/quote] Radial wiring is a wire or pair of wires feeding from a central hub to outer points as per spokes of a wheel. As I read it a pair of wires from each sensor (which is essentially a switch) would feed back to the module where they would connect in similar fashion to an acc decoder point motor port. There would be a pair of connections per port and if intel is correct 48 ports per module and of course a socket for the wall wart which powers the module. I stand to be corrected if a schematic diagram ever appears, as a 2 wire loop bus would be simpler carrying multiplexed signals. Having said all that I found this [url=http://wilkiecat.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/what-is-hornby-ldm56-on-railmaster/]http://wilkiecat.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/what-is-hornby-ldm56-on-railmaster/[/url] which talks to 24 ports per module supporting a max of 96 sensors via 4 modules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Hi RAF96 The details added by Allen Knight on 26 July 2013 states..... [b][i]The LD track sensor[/i][/b][i] is a [b]black strip similar to the hornby uncoupling ramp[/b] which can be retro-fitted to an existing layout. Wires from this unit will have to go through a hole drilled through the baseboard.[/i][i] [/i] I wonder, was this before the Eurika moment or after? Similar to an uncoupling ramp! I don't like the sound of that, length? appearance? degree of accuracy? Then he says..... [i]The Railmaster loco detection receiver has 24 ports, allowing up to 24 track sensors to be used. Up to three additional R8307 LD modules may be added, giving up to 96 sensors. [/i] This means every sensor is wired back directly to the LD receiver, I wonder how big they are? I also wonder where Allen Knight, Comedian and Actor with spare time hobbies of Railway Modelling and Personal Computers got this information? Although that is not really that important to me, there is some good information here. Thanks RAF96 PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 @ PJ Thanks for the link - an impressive layout. That must be a fairly sizeable monitor to show two columns of loco data and the entire layout. What size is it please? R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote]@ PJ Thanks for the link - an impressive layout. That must be a fairly sizeable monitor to show two columns of loco data and the entire layout. What size is it please? R-[/quote] Hello R 22" Resolution 1920 x 1080 HRMS recommend 1920 x 1200 but they are not popular in the UK. I know Hornby serve the world but there are not a lot of countries with 1200 high resolution. I did suggest the train boxes and icons be made smaller, one to that two coloumns take up less room increasing the width as most layouts are lnger left to right on the screen, and by reducing them make it so that 5 locos show in 1080. Not a big task really. PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote]What ever happened to DCC and its 'simpler' wiring. How many ports does the module have?[/quote] Hello WTD DCC is simpler method of wiring overall. The DCC Bus and droppers = more work (compared to a track power clip but, although some get by with one for now, the risks are there as you add more item or run more trains, accessories etc.) A DCC Bus gives a uniformily distributed power source. Adding accessories eg points and signals = a lot less work Points to a decoder and connect to bus where it is. Signals connect to bus or rail where they are. Maybe they should say, overall DCC wiring is simpler. Simples ;o) PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote]Hi RAF96 The details added by Allen Knight on 26 July 2013 states..... [b][i]The LD track sensor[/i][/b][i] is a [b]black strip similar to the hornby uncoupling ramp[/b] which can be retro-fitted to an existing layout. Wires from this unit will have to go through a hole drilled through the baseboard.[/i][i] [/i] I wonder, was this before the Eurika moment or after? Similar to an uncoupling ramp! I don't like the sound of that, length? appearance? degree of accuracy? Then he says..... [i]The Railmaster loco detection receiver has 24 ports, allowing up to 24 track sensors to be used. Up to three additional R8307 LD modules may be added, giving up to 96 sensors. [/i] This means every sensor is wired back directly to the LD receiver, I wonder how big they are? I also wonder where Allen Knight, Comedian and Actor with spare time hobbies of Railway Modelling and Personal Computers got this information? Although that is not really that important to me, there is some good information here. Thanks RAF96 PJ[/quote] PJ Further to my diatribe previously if you scan the latest RM manual on Page 39 there is a picture of a sensor as used by RM to calibrate non-Hornby locos. Mr AK - yes where does he get his info from, but it seems likely his was pre-the Hornby enlightenment moment. I think we went from RFID to IR detection as the manual now talks to a reflective strip more likely to be some form of bar code style. Everyday a little closer to the end product... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Thanks for the reply PJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote]Thanks for the reply PJ.[/quote] No problem WTD So DCC wiring does make things easier and reduce the amount of wiring, as you progress. A little like interest on the money we had ;o) They say you have to keep adding to it to get any benefit from it. They say....... PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote] [quote]Hi RAF96 The details added by Allen Knight on 26 July 2013 states..... [b][i]The LD track sensor[/i][/b][i] is a [b]black strip similar to the hornby uncoupling ramp[/b] which can be retro-fitted to an existing layout. Wires from this unit will have to go through a hole drilled through the baseboard.[/i][i] [/i] I wonder, was this before the Eurika moment or after? Similar to an uncoupling ramp! I don't like the sound of that, length? appearance? degree of accuracy? Then he says..... [i]The Railmaster loco detection receiver has 24 ports, allowing up to 24 track sensors to be used. Up to three additional R8307 LD modules may be added, giving up to 96 sensors. [/i] This means every sensor is wired back directly to the LD receiver, I wonder how big they are? I also wonder where Allen Knight, Comedian and Actor with spare time hobbies of Railway Modelling and Personal Computers got this information? Although that is not really that important to me, there is some good information here. Thanks RAF96 PJ[/quote] PJ Further to my diatribe previously if you scan the latest RM manual on Page 39 there is a picture of a sensor as used by RM to calibrate non-Hornby locos. Mr AK - yes where does he get his info from, but it seems likely his was pre-the Hornby enlightenment moment. I think we went from RFID to IR detection as the manual now talks to a reflective strip more likely to be some form of bar code style. Everyday a little closer to the end product...[/quote] There certainly is ;o) It is between the sleepers not in the sleeper but it sure is there. It is also not like an uncoupling ramp so, it is starting to look good. Eurika! I already know roughly where my main block sensors will go but, once my signalling is complete I will measure or calculate every block length, plus train and carriages length I expect to work by, to ensure they is room and a bit more for every block. I will then run trains and set speeds to change at a proposed signal sensor and test stopping distance, every train is different. Then I can decide where I will add intermediate sensors for better slowing down and stopping control. I will probably use record and save programs first and then tweak them, that will be relatively new to me so it will be 'play time' at last. Every day is a little closer ;-) Every day I am a little closer also. Except for bugs in the signal software and waiting for feather control for signals I hope to have ALL signals complete by the end of the coming week. They are programmed, they will we wired and soldered in, the feather ones with decoders and sidings ones with decoders will be in place ready to uplift the layout and complete underneath along with a small amount of lighting to finish. Two weeks they should all be done, I can't wait to play. PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 [quote] [quote]Hi RAF96 The details added by Allen Knight on 26 July 2013 states..... [b][i]The LD track sensor[/i][/b][i] is a [b]black strip similar to the hornby uncoupling ramp[/b] which can be retro-fitted to an existing layout. Wires from this unit will have to go through a hole drilled through the baseboard.[/i][i] [/i] I wonder, was this before the Eurika moment or after? Similar to an uncoupling ramp! I don't like the sound of that, length? appearance? degree of accuracy? Then he says..... [i]The Railmaster loco detection receiver has 24 ports, allowing up to 24 track sensors to be used. Up to three additional R8307 LD modules may be added, giving up to 96 sensors. [/i] This means every sensor is wired back directly to the LD receiver, I wonder how big they are? I also wonder where Allen Knight, Comedian and Actor with spare time hobbies of Railway Modelling and Personal Computers got this information? Although that is not really that important to me, there is some good information here. Thanks RAF96 PJ[/quote] PJ Further to my diatribe previously if you scan the latest RM manual on Page 39 there is a picture of a sensor as used by RM to calibrate non-Hornby locos. Mr AK - yes where does he get his info from, but it seems likely his was pre-the Hornby enlightenment moment. I think we went from RFID to IR detection as the manual now talks to a reflective strip more likely to be some form of bar code style. Everyday a little closer to the end product...[/quote] There certainly is ;o) It is between the sleepers not in the sleeper but it sure is there. It is also not like an uncoupling ramp so, it is starting to look good. Eurika! I already know roughly where my main block sensors will go but, once my signalling is complete I will measure or calculate every block length, plus train and carriages length I expect to work by, to ensure they is room and a bit more for every block. I will then run trains and set speeds to change at a proposed signal sensor and test stopping distance, every train is different. Then I can decide where I will add intermediate sensors for better slowing down and stopping control. I will probably use record and save programs first and then tweak them, that will be relatively new to me so it will be 'play time' at last. Every day is a little closer ;-) Yep! Every day I am a little closer also. Except for bugs in the signal software and waiting for feather control for signals in RM, I hope to have ALL signals complete by the end of the coming week. They are programmed, they will we wired and soldered in, the feather ones with decoders and sidings ones with decoders will be in place ready to uplift the layout and complete underneath along with a small amount of lighting to finish. Two weeks they should all be done, I can't wait to play. PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 People are talking 24 detectors for each LD controller whereas the DCC supplement of the Hornby magazine from a few months ago says 48. And then someone says you can have 4 LD controllers, but there is only provision for 2 in the LD tab of RM Setup. The supplement also says the complete set of LD tags will run to 106 separate addresses. If every detector has to be individually wired to the LD controller, imagine the amount of real estate on the controller which will be needed for those 96 connections. And those 96 wires will have to run from all over the layout back to that controller. Doesn't seem likely to me. And I'll say it again - technically there is no reason the whole lot can't be modulated onto a single bus, being your existing DCC bus or the rails themselves carrying both DCC and LD signals. Whether they do it or not is another matter we will simply have to wait to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 [quote]People are talking 24 detectors for each LD controller whereas the DCC supplement of the Hornby magazine from a few months ago says 48. And then someone says you can have 4 LD controllers, but there is only provision for 2 in the LD tab of RM Setup. The supplement also says the complete set of LD tags will run to 106 separate addresses. If every detector has to be individually wired to the LD controller, imagine the amount of real estate on the controller which will be needed for those 96 connections. And those 96 wires will have to run from all over the layout back to that controller. Doesn't seem likely to me. And I'll say it again - technically there is no reason the whole lot can't be modulated onto a single bus, being your existing DCC bus or the rails themselves carrying both DCC and LD signals. Whether they do it or not is another matter we will simply have to wait to see.[/quote] Hi Fishy It is a jig saw but the pieces are coming together. The clues are there HRMS are probably thinking ;o) The message of last July has no doubt changed,Eurika event and more, no doubt. 24 detectors, 4 LD controllers, this looks an easy change by Hornby to 48 detectors and 2 LD contollers. I agree the wiring suggested does seem excessive, maybe first thoughts were 1 port per sensor and they have had a rethink. My thoughts remain on a LD Bus, the reason I am thinking this is the controllers are separate to the DCC Bus and eLink. The other reason I am thinking a LD Bus is because the information sent to the controller are 'very small' packets of information, so a bus would be more efficient and cerainly not like wiring an old BT switch room. Another thought I had (it doesn't really matter) is, would there be one wire or two? Data is only travelling one way between the sensor and the controller. Although we will have to wait and see, we know that, there is nothing wrong with discussing things here, so much more has come to the surface in the last 24-48 hours, I am sure HRMS wants us to talk about Loco Detection, it generates interest in the system, if they didn't want us to do so they would not have put in in the RM Guide. PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 PJ, if you can figure out how to make it work with one wire per sensor, you'll make a fortune. For a start, you'll be able to show people how to halve the wiring in a new house, and you'll only need pickups on one side to make your trains work. Sorry, my little joke. You can't complete any electrical circuit with only one wire. There has to be a return somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 [quote]PJ, if you can figure out how to make it work with one wire per sensor, you'll make a fortune. For a start, you'll be able to show people how to halve the wiring in a new house, and you'll only need pickups on one side to make your trains work. Sorry, my little joke. You can't complete any electrical circuit with only one wire. There has to be a return somewhere.[/quote] Hi Fishy I have to laugh.... now! I put the comment, saw a spelling error and corrected it. My soldering iron was hot and I wanted to solder wires to a couple of signals read to add to the track. As I was doing so, I thought blast, one wire, PJ you whally. So I finished my soldering went back and it was to late to edit it. I though shall I put another comment, no, wait and see who is first to comment ;o) Back to my soldering. By the way, thank you Fishy. Last November you gave me suggestions how to solder, I had never done it before and wasn't looking forward to it. I started with DCC dropper wires and then very fine wires for lights for street lighting and cars and now, a small spot under a signal contact. Tinning was the key! Thank you PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 An interesting point about a single wire. A month or so ago my telephone line was completely dead. My broadband that uses the line worked fine. I mentioned it to my friend who worked for BT and he said something about only needing one wire for data transfer, as long as one was connected broadband would work OK. Just thought I'd mention it to give you something to talk about in case you run out of ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 [quote]An interesting point about a single wire. A month or so ago my telephone line was completely dead. My broadband that uses the line worked fine. I mentioned it to my friend who worked for BT and he said something about only needing one wire for data transfer, as long as one was connected broadband would work OK. Just thought I'd mention it to give you something to talk about in case you run out of ideas.[/quote] An interesting point indeed WTD I am sure you have some telecommunication minded people search for clues or confirmation. What shall we talk about next ;o) PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Sadly my friend who I worked with in the GPO 47 years ago suddenly passed away last month so I can't ask him to explain. On the BT website it does say you can follow the progress of a fault on your line by using your broadband. In my case a wire had become detached on the drop wire from the house to the DP (distribution pole). So one wire could be a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Wasn't 1st April when he told you that WTD? Your phone line can be dead without there being a break in it of course. It could be right back at the source where they connect the phone signal to your line. And the fact your ADSL still worked sort of proved this. And your phone line and ADSL is another example of being able to put 2 completely different signals down the one line, just as you could with DCC and LD. In this instance, you need a filter at your end so that you can block one signal while you connect to the other. No filter and you'll find your voice circuit all noisy with the ADSL data stream. PS. Just on needing a return to complete an electrical circuit, if we are talking radio frequencies, very very high ones in particular, there may not be 2 recognisable physical wires involved. This is due to the propogation characteristics of electromagnetic waves. So you may not be able to see a physical wire but the return circuit will be there just the same. Oops, see you have replied and wasn't a break at source at all. But a physical break may well stop a voice signal with highest frequency 3.5kHz while a signal of some MHz continues to propagate past that break in the air gap, just like your radio or TV signals propagate in air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 It is amazing what can be sent down a wire. I have a box under the lounge TV that sends all channels, from that other box (name not mentioned not Freeview) to a TV in another room via the 30 amp house wiring. It also sends films from my DVD etc all down the domestic house wiring. PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Like I said fishy I had a wire that was disconnected on the drop wire from our house to the DP. I could still use my broadband. I asked him how this was possible and he said you only needed one connection. Things have changed a bit since I trained as a telephone engineer but the fact is it works with one wire. There wasn't an air gap, you'll be telling me next you don't need a wireless connection you only need to sit near the phone with your laptop and the Internet will work. I'm only stating what happened and as BT suggest you can follow the fault progress of your land line using your broadband it's obviously normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Exactly PJ so now you can all surmise how the LD signal gets around, maybe it hops onto a wagon and jumps off next time it passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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