GSX550ES Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Granson's Flying Scotsman no longer works, no obvious signs why it should not work, other than the tender has 6 wheels & looks to hold the motor. The middle set of wheels just flop about where the first & third set do not, is that correct as they do appear to be the driving wheels. Can somebody also confirm that the tender uses the right wheels viewed from the back to pick up current & then gets the other leg from the engine's left wheels to complete the circuit. I was going to try to get the top off the tender but I don't think I have the correct screwdriver, my small crosshead doesn't want to move them & I don't want to cause damage.Alan.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Flying Scotsman's tender should have 8 wheels. From the front, those on the 1st and 3rd axles are driven and have traction tyres on one side. As you say the electrical circuit is via the non-tyred tender wheels on those axles thence through the motor and to the loco via the drawbar and back to the track via its driving wheels on the opposite rail to the tender wheels. The wheels on the 2nd tender axle are often floppy and this is normal.When you say the locomotive no longer works, is it electrically dead or does it have a short-circuit causing the controller to shut down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ73 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Hello Alan Nearly 2 years ago to the day, some thing strange happen to my F. S. - it didn't work to well (it kept on stopping for no reason why!!!) & I had to swap the tender with my Clan Line loco... /media/tinymce_upload/4d876952ca22615bc93f27ca6d2e4dcc.JPG As you can see in the above photo the Tender have been swap around so the my F. S. could work - here is a link to explain why... May be you need to swap it with another tender like I did / had to!!!Did my Tender go through the Twilight Zone??? Watch my vid & see why!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 Flying Scotsman's tender should have 8 wheels. From the front, those on the 1st and 3rd axles are driven and have traction tyres on one side. As you say the electrical circuit is via the non-tyred tender wheels on those axles thence through the motor and to the loco via the drawbar and back to the track via its driving wheels on the opposite rail to the tender wheels. The wheels on the 2nd tender axle are often floppy and this is normal.When you say the locomotive no longer works, is it electrically dead or does it have a short-circuit causing the controller to shut down? Sorry yes it does have 8 wheels, I was ignoring the bogie at the back apoloiies, I now know a little more please remember I'm getting this via my wife, who is getting it from my 8 year old grandson. So first thing is it is a powered tender, again sorry if this is not the correct term, but the motor is in the tender. If I use some flyleads & put power direct to the post & plate (again sorry it not correct terminlog) I can get the motor to turn in each direction so my current thinking is that the tender/motor is okay & that the fault lies within the pick-up of the loco itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 Hello Alan Nearly 2 years ago to the day, some thing strange happen to my F. S. - it didn't work to well (it kept on stopping for no reason why!!!) & I had to swap the tender with my Clan Line loco...As you can see in the above photo the Tender have been swap around so the my F. S. could work - here is a link to explain why... May be you need to swap it with another tender like I did / had to!!!Did my Tender go through the Twilight Zone??? Watch my vid & see why!!! Thanks for that but ours has the motor in the tender, I've tracked the issue down to the linkage between the loco & the tender, there appears to be something missing. /media/tinymce_upload/b8427ec78d30db68b27fadd7d449d76a.jpgSorry if it's not a good picture, but the centre pin connects, but there must be something missing to allow the upper part to connect with the tender, is this a part that can be bought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 The loco is coupled to its tender by a drawbar which includes electrical contacts. Those above the actual drawbar should make contact with the metal plate on the tender that surrounds the pin but without making contact with that pin, while the jaws below the drawbar should grip the pin tightly. All bearing surfaces must be kept clean. From the drawbar, two wires run forward to the pick-ups on the locomotive chassis. To check the wiring, remove the loco body by means of the screw above the front bogie and lift the front of the body to release it from the lug on the rear of the chassis under the cab. If the wiring is sound, check that the loco pick-ups are making good contact with the rear metal rims of the driving wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 The loco is coupled to its tender by a drawbar which includes electrical contacts. Those above the actual drawbar should make contact with the metal plate on the tender that surrounds the pin but without making contact with that pin, while the jaws below the drawbar should grip the pin tightly. All bearing surfaces must be kept clean. From the drawbar, two wires run forward to the pick-ups on the locomotive chassis. To check the wiring, remove the loco body by means of the screw above the front bogie and lift the front of the body to release it from the lug on the rear of the chassis under the cab. If the wiring is sound, check that the loco pick-ups are making good contact with the rear metal rims of the driving wheels. Once again thank you I have now narrowed it down to the actual connector, I believe I need to buy a X8432 as this is what I think has broken, although currently I cannot find any stock with a Google search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMSFan72 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 @GSX550ES Can you see the copper contacts on the draw bar and do they look to have any bits missing? If the contacts are in place then it would seem to me unlikely to be the draw bar itself. The contacts may be bent out of position but, if they are, they ought to be able to be bent back into position fairly easily, just carefully. Perhaps the wires or the solder joints to the draw bar are at fault? How did you deduce that it is the draw bar rather than something else in the loco as it's worth being doubly certain if you cannot find any availability of the part anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 @GSX550ES Can you see the copper contacts on the draw bar and do they look to have any bits missing? If the contacts are in place then it would seem to me unlikely to be the draw bar itself. The contacts may be bent out of position but, if they are, they ought to be able to be bent back into position fairly easily, just carefully. Perhaps the wires or the solder joints to the draw bar are at fault? How did you deduce that it is the draw bar rather than something else in the loco as it's worth being doubly certain if you cannot find any availability of the part anyway.I've added a picture but it has to have somebody approve it apparently, or they have decided to not approve it. I have tested the circuit from the wheels each side of the loco back to the wires solder on the drawbar. When you place the tender onto the loco the pin goes through & connects to some copper terminals, but there is nothing there to make contact with the plate terminal. If you look at https://www.petersspares.com/hornby-x8432-drawbar-a1-a3-a4-king-gordon-scotsman.ir you can see 2x terminals sticking up, these are what are missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMSFan72 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 OK, so, without the picture of the actual loco I can't tell, but, there are a couple more things to note. There are lots of variations of the Flying Scotsman and they have different draw bars. The one in your link is a sprung draw bar that was on tender driven locos around the year 2000. I have one of these from a set. However, there are earlier locos that are tender driven that have a draw bar more like you describe - there are no "fingers" on the top of it. Does yours look like the fingers used to be there or can you not actually see any tell-tale marks?If you have a look at a few service sheets, you may be able to see what I mean. They are available on this site under the "Help & Advice" section if you didn't know...HSS 204 is for an earlier model without the fingers: https://www.hornby.com/servicesheets/index/download/id/157/ HSS 259C is for a later model with "fingers" these draw bars are sprung https://www.hornby.com/servicesheets/index/download/id/33/ So, worth confirming to help your diagnosis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 In Alan's second post, he makes reference to getting the tender drive to work by applying power to the "post and plate", not the post and one wheel which would have been necessary with the earlier version. I therefore assume the drawbar should have the upward-facing feeler contacts but I have been unable to unearth either a X8432/X8432M drawbar for sale or, thus far, another drawbar which might be a satisfactory substitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 If nobody will authorise my images I'm not sure what more I can do, I really appriaciate your help, it was part of a set which I bought in August 2018 for him, although new it may have been old stock. But I am pretty sure that it is the HSS 259C, it certainly has wires soldered on it & appears to have something missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 In Alan's second post, he makes reference to getting the tender drive to work by applying power to the "post and plate", not the post and one wheel which would have been necessary with the earlier version. I therefore assume the drawbar should have the upward-facing feeler contacts but I have been unable to unearth either a X8432/X8432M drawbar for sale or, thus far, another drawbar which might be a satisfactory substitute.Thank you, I raised a query with Hornby & they put me onto Lendon's but searching on there for X8432 brings up X8555 I spoke to them & although they cannot confirm it will work the response was "Well if we've linked the parts we've probably managed to use them ourselves in the past" At £1.50 it's worth a punt, but they have a minimum order od £3.50 so had to order 2 of them & a coupler to make up th emoney :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMSFan72 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 Good luck. If it doesn't fit you may be able to modify one, or switch parts to the old one...the benefit of having to buy a second spare!! Looking at the pictures I think you'll be OK, there'll be a way of tuning it to work even if it's not exact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 It may be a case of having to move the feeler contacts from one of the new drawbars to the original because, from (a sometimes unreliable) memory, X8555 is shorter than X8432 and may therefore cause the loco and tender to foul on sharp radius curves. Trial & error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 Thanks again guys, hopefully I can get the new one to work, that was the rationale about buying two, if the worst comes to the worst I see no reason not to wire the loco direct to the tender as it has to be there to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 @GSX550ESIt would be really appreciated if you would stop using the Blue button. This is not a 'Reply to this post' button. Have a read of TIP 1 and also TIP 2 & 3 in my 'How to use this forum for best results' thread..When did you post these missing images?.Images are not approved by Community Moderators, they have to be approved by Hornby forum admin. There can sometimes be several days delay as the acting administrator has other duties and only works UK Hornby office hours. Most image approvals seem to occur on Mondays and Tuesdays..There is currently a lack of Hornby admin support at present. This was documented in the 'Forum Feedback'......refer to this earlier thread for details affecting image approvals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 12, 2020 Author Share Posted March 12, 2020 @Chrissaf it seems bizarre to request me not to quote people when that is specifically what I am wanting to do. There were multiple replies, quoting them ensure that the answers are restricted to the correct response to avoid confusion. It also seems very bizarre that you say that Hornby UK have to approve images, yet other members images are shown within the same thread, or are members moved into 'trusted' where their images automatically get posted? I'll try some direct links or will they also dissapear into the either? https://i.ibb.co/Vmd66YC/IMG-20200310-185757.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/KG2fnS9/IMG-20200310-185814.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/3mzkpv0/IMG-20200310-190858.jpg It looks like it allows non embedded links, sorry they will have to be copied/pasted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 @Chrissaf it seems bizarre to request me not to quote people when that is specifically what I am wanting to do..But there is no real need to re-quote the whole post. It is really tiring for members to re-read the whole of a re-quote and then have to try and work out what line in that re-quote is being referred to in the new reply. A quote only needs to be the one liner section of a previous post, as I have done above. The excess text can be edited out. Not only that, it is unnecessary to re-quote the whole post when you are replying to the post directly above your reply (like you did on two posted replies on the previous page of this thread). Forum members are intelligent enough to see the textual content link between two posts that are so close together. If you just want to bring a reply to the attention of a particular forum member then just use their @username ....at the beginning of your reply......that is all that is required..Whole post re-quotes (particularly long ones) are disliked by many members. Which is why there has long been a campaign by many forum members (not just the ComMods) to have the 'Blue' button removed altogether.....yet other members images are shown within the same thread,.Looking at your posting history only one of your 17 posts shown in the history contains an image..Once you have built up some image posting history, you can then apply to the forum administrator for 'instant image posting rights'. You have to ask for it, it is not given automatically. But the administrator will want to see some image posting history first before granting those privilege rights..Using the quote method I have demonstrated in this reply (that is to say 'one line' quotes using the 66 icon by the way and not the Blue button). The reply flows and makes more instant sense, because the new reply text is a direct continuation in reply to the quoted line. It therefore becomes easier to read over-all. This was the essence and rationale of my polite request..And just to show that embedded clickable links can be posted if you follow the 'How To' guidance in my TIPs thread (TIP 13). Your links are copied below in clickable form, using that documented TIP 13 'How To' guidance..https://i.ibb.co/Vmd66YC/IMG-20200310-185757.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/KG2fnS9/IMG-20200310-185814.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/3mzkpv0/IMG-20200310-190858.jpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 Guys,The parts arrived yesterday, but it's been a busy weekend with family issues, but after a very quick look I think the X8555 will work, but as a suplementry quation, it has come with a small coiled spring, where does this go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Pretty sure it goes on the screw that attaches the draw bar to the loco. Put the screw through the draw bar then add the spring. Edit: having just see a picture, what I have said is absolute rubbish. I believe it attaches to the tender end of the draw bar then attaches to the loco. The hole in the loco end of the draw bar is elongated so the spring allows the draw bar to be long when the loco is moving but closes up when stationary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 The spring should have unequal diameter loops at each end and sits underneath the drawbar. The smaller end fits over a small lug near the bottom jaws fixing while the larger end fits in to a groove cut around the head of the screw that holds the drawbar to the loco chassis. As WTD says, this allows the securing screw to move along the cutout in the drawbar, tension on the spring keeping the tender close to the loco but allows movement around curves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 I got the reason incorrect. Thanks GS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX550ES Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 Can point me to the picture please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 I meant a picture of the part on the Lendons web site showing the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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