Mikey Hobbs Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Hi All,I recently purchased the above loco 2nd hand. It arrived and needed a minor service so I put new traction tyres on and set about oiling the axles in the loco itself as they were running a little roughly.I unscrewed the 3 screws on the plate that holds the 6 wheels in place, removed the front and rear bogies and put to one side. Oiled the axels replaced the plate. When I attached the rear bogie with the long screw and spring, a small copper washer fell out onto the floor which I can no longer find.Now the loco won't run however when hotwiring the tender, the motor runs fine. This obviously points towards power not coming through from the loco.Which wheel on the loco takes the power from the track and how is it conducted to the contact on the coupling to the tender? Any help or pointers would be appreciated.ThanksMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Whilst you wait for some knowledgable member to answer....You could potentially benefit from reading my 'How to get the best from this forum' page......see text below..TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button..See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 What you might have done wrong is oiling the axles, did you put a minute amount of oil on. If you put too much on, it acts as an insulator. This loco picks up one side of the supply from the loco the other from the tender, so the connection between loco and tender via the pin is critical. I have recently been upgrading my ringfield based A4, so I know a lot about these. The other thing to check, is the loco's valve gear, it has got to be totally free otherwise the tender has difficulty pushing it along. Peters Spares does enhanced motor housings for this model which means you can convert the tender to pick up from both wheels if you interested. Also check that all the armature windindings are connected together, on one of mine, it was one of the windings that was broken. I suspect the washer that fell out is a spacer for the pony truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Excellent info from CB above.I've done it myself, thinking that oil will be lost over time - when you'll next consider oiling - so have added a smidgen too much and had a temporarily poor runner. Another thing, mentioning as CB did that contact between the axle and chassis are required for electrical continuity, I presume one wheel is insulated, the other isn't. Are they all the same way around?Is it possible they're all the wrong way around? Al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Hobbs Posted March 27, 2020 Author Share Posted March 27, 2020 Thank you both for your suggestions. I did take the wheels out so it's very possible that they went back in the wrong way round. Is there any obvious way to tell which is the "live" wheel and which is the insulated one?Also the oil suggestion is one I will try - I'll try drying it out.ThanksMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 The easiest way to tell is on the tender the wheels with the traction tyres are the insulated ones, so on the loco, the insulated ones will be on the opposite side to the tender traction tyre side, or alternatively the uninsulated loco wheels will be on the same side as the traction tyres. If you have a multimeter check that the wire from the motor to the pin on tender is connected, this is a crimp connection and it might have high resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Was your locomotive made in the UK or in China? Electrical paths through the loco and tender are different. Do you know the Hornby catalogue (Rxxxx) number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 On the insulated wheels, you should be able to see the plastic insulating bush around the axle end, in the driving wheel centres. The other side doesn't have the bushes. The exception can be that the centre driving wheels can sometimes be insulated on both sides, as some locos only pick up from the two outside pairs of driving wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Hobbs Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 Apologies for the delay in coming back, the forum restricts to 2 posts max in a day. Loco still not functioning properly but I am getting intermittent power to the tender while on track but on the bench the motor runs fine.@ColinB The front and rear pair of wheels appear to have plastic spokes so the pickup wheels appear to be the centre only. Moreconfusingly, I am getting continuity at the rear contact from wheels on both sides of the loco chassis... I have tried to get resistance levels with my very basic multimeter but readings are erratic and go from 0.00 up to over 2 ohms.@Goingspare I have found the reference S4400 stamped on the loco chassis. Does that sound like the catalogue number?@Sarahagain I can't see anything that obviously looks like an insultating bush on either side but the groove in the middle of each axel in the photos below may be what you're referring to. I think its only the middle wheels that pick up as they seem to be metal and the others plastic (I can't get continuity through the wheel centres on the front and rear wheels.Thanks all for your assistance./media/tinymce_upload/90e37620e72720cd41489a409f423992.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Hobbs Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Hi All,I did pen a response and submitted it but it appears it never got posted as I included an image of the bottom of the loco and it went for approval.I have since gone back and thoroughly dried out the oil that was between the axles and the chassis block and I now get consistent contact wiht the tender motor running great. What I'm now struggling with is that the wheels on teh loco are not smooth and providing lots of resistance to turning. Can anyone recommend an alternative lubricant to sewing machine oil that doesn't insulate?Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 On mine I used silicon spray that seemed to work well. I build classic motorcycles as a hobby so I buy cans of silican lubricant round auto jumbles. I also bought some of that ptfe grease from Peters Spares that also works well. As I said before, check the valve gear runs freely, that was an issue on one of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Any resistance is unlikely to be just lack of oil. It is more likely to be the geometry of the coupling rods on the wheels are out of alignment or tightness where the coupling rods go into the cylinders. You say that "the wheels on the loco are not smooth" if by this you mean jerky, then that is a really good indicator that wheel and coupling rod alignment is the issue. The term is called "quartering" so search this forum for that term for more information, or search Google..If you are using sewing machine oil as you say, then that is a suitable oil substitute for proper model oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 No, S4400 is the casting part number of the main chassis block. The grooves in the axles are not to do with insulation. All three driving wheels on the left hand side (the upper side in your photograph) should have a black (or possibly dark grey) plastic ring visible on the outside of the wheels between the axle and the wheel boss. All other parts of the wheels are metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Service Sheet 117 downloadable from the Lendons of Cardiff website gives you an exploded view of the loco chassis and sheet 118 covers the tender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Service Sheet 117. /media/tinymce_upload/f51012f5413bd72266d04d6f004bd5ec.jpg /media/tinymce_upload/7a9093887ac656a52ddfb508c53ab5e2.jpg Service Sheet 118 /media/tinymce_upload/f866498cb9a1f53cac4e6c73de71189c.jpg /media/tinymce_upload/be57556e05bd00784bb83684e5bcee3a.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 A later Service Sheet, 117A. /media/tinymce_upload/5459a379f603392124a539a299c4c280.jpg /media/tinymce_upload/d81e14af7f54afb20f4b5006d6be77ca.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Service sheet 117 shews the insulating bushes, part no. S.8397 on the right hand side on the front and back driving wheel axles, and on both sides of the centre driving wheel axles. With Locomotives, it is usual for the left and right to be as if looking from the back towards the front I believe. The same as for ships, Port, red, left, Starboard, green, right. With the arrangement on Service Sheet 117, the insulated side does not pick up current. It is the uninsulated side, and the whole chassis block that picks up current, being passed through the rear pony truck securing screw to the pony truck casting, and via the two brass wipers, to the pin on the tender front, which is wired to the "front" brush of the tender drive motor. The centre wheels, being insulated on both sides, do not pick up current at all. The non driving, without traction tyres, right hand side of the tender are the other pick up, and the whole of the motor block is connected through the non driving wheels to the track, and through the link wire, X.1183, to the "rear" brush of the motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 My turn to apologise! Sarah has given you the correct information. A senior moment last evening - should get to bed earlier! In your photograph, it is the lower wheels that should have insulating bushes between the axle and the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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