Spare, replacement, motors?

[Yorkshire Dad]

Surprised to find no matches in the search tool here for "replacement motor", and "spare motor" yields only one result ... for an entire APT trainset.

I've a Eurostar trainset, R1176, and most curiously the motor seemed to burn itself out shortly after a minor derailment.  Trying to put it back on the track ...admittedly with the track power still on ... the wheels span very fast relative to the controller’s setting then the controller cut out.  Reset it, train lurched forward for half an inch or so, and the controller cut out and there was a slight puff of smoke from the motor.

I think the derailment can only be coincidental unless someone can convince me otherwise.

The thing is only two or three months old and had very little use and been well cared for.

Nothing listed by way of spare motors on the Hornby website proper.  Anyone here any knowledge or ideas, please?

 

[96RAF]

New Railway Modellers Shop has a wide range of motors.

https://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/hornby_spares_motors_and_gears.htm

 

You should download the service sheet for the loco to find the motor part number.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/downloads/view/index/cat/2/

[Chrissaf]

Loads of posts on this forum regarding spare replacement motors as it is a topic that comes up regularly.

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Click here to see these search reasults.

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TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[Going Spare]

X3437DC is the Eurostar motor bogie.  Appears not to be in stock at Hornby but available at the usual spares suppliers.  X6028DC is the motor assembly but out of stock.

[Yorkshire Dad]

To mostly answer my own question, I stumbled upon the Service Sheets' reference to X6028DC.  Looks cheap and cheerful, what happened to motors more solidly built into the chassis itself, from the 70s??  Anyway, am now rummaging for someone with one in stock, but might anyone please be able to explain the difference between the X6028DC for DCC equipped locos, and X6028 for non-DCC?  New to DCC.  Why should a motor not still just be a motor?  Or should I have looked at the wiring more closely, for perhaps an extra terminal or something?

[ColinB]

You could try this guy on EBay he sells Hornby motor replacements 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/jacclar_0/m.html?item=254489919468&var=554159706928&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

If it is only 2 or 3 months old then surely send it back to Hornby, it should not just burn out. I suppose the motor stalled and drew maximum current, even so it shouldn't be that easy to burn it out. Anyway ask Hornby for a return number, then it is their issue. If Hornby don't get the duff ones back, then they will never fix the issues. I know I always try to fix things myself, but in this case it needs to go back.

[Going Spare]

The difference is in the wiring.  The DC motor has wiring to connect to the DCC socket in the centre of the chassis while the original motor was supplied with wiring long enough to run the full length of the chassis to the non-powered bogie.

[Yorkshire Dad]

To update my own question, for those interested or indeed be able to help with a question or two arising ...

In my haste to source a new motor before even opening the body (I had smelt the age old distinctive tell-tale burnt electrical item smell, automatically assumed motor, and was anxious to get replacement parts lined up ready for when I did open it up, to effect a swift ‘one hit fix’) I ultimately went for a new ready assembled bogey, having found the motor alone out of stock.

Super quick, well packaged, no-nonsense turnaround by Peters Spares which deserves special credit during The Bug, and more than compensated for initial suspicions arising from careless spellings all over the shop.  A local, York, retailer I've adopted as my preferred supplier endeavoured to maintain email / mail order but appears to have run out of luck on that front too and my email went unanswered.

So, armed with the bits, I lifted the body off and immediately saw a discoloured ceramic disc capacitor, there I presume for radio interference suppression on the off-chance a neighbour might be listening to AM radio or whatever its real purpose is.  Removing it, I found it showed around 50 ohms resistance, and the motor then ran fine without it, so clearly failed in some way.  In the end, I opted to change it for a good direct replacement one I already had in my assorted electronics bits and bobs, and away the train went once more, leaving me with a complete spare bogey.

But why, besides bad luck, might the capacitor have failed?  It became apparent within seconds of a derailment and some weird surge in the motor speed whilst (rightly or wrongly) trying to put it back on track with the track still live.  That freak burst of motor speed despite the modest controller speed setting had further made me think a coil in the motor had somehow shorted through its enamel insulation.  Somewhere on the internet it referred to high current being drawn by the motor can cause a capacitor to burn out. But surely a high current through a motor concerns, by definition, the motor … a capacitor in parallel with it, in my modest basic level of understanding, should be unaffected unless the high current through the motor was driven by a ludicrously high voltage on the tracks? Is this a regular occurrence and what, perhaps better quality or otherwise more robust capacitors may be fitted?

Had I sourced a motor by itself, is there a knack to opening the bogey to swap it?

I see the red and black pre-soldered wiring tails on the replacement motor were the other way around from the original, and incidentally thinner.  I’m obviously alert to general polarity issues across the track, and how swapping wires on the motor reverse direction, but in my ignorance of DCC for if and when I get it might I just ask is there any need for consistency of polarity to motor supplies across all rolling stock from a given controller so that things always move in a predictable direction?

I must say the soldering of the motor tails on the new motor were marvellously neat and sound looking.  I’ve really never had any luck soldering, indeed made a mess of just trying to reconnect things with a new capacitor in the loco just now.  I’ve been doing it, albeit only occasionally, for 35 years or so.  Always the same …. solder never flows unless I use lots of heavy duty plumber's flux (messy), dry looking or low strength joins, solder that either forever clings to else never wants to cling to the iron ….   I’ve always put it down to insufficient power in the iron as I know all about cleaniless, pre-tinning surfaces etc.  Think I used a 25W Antex for this.  Bought, albeit Chinese, a variable temperature ‘soldering station’ a  year or two ago, which proved hit and miss.  The only reliable feature was the plastic handle would always get too hot to hold!  What, in the field of model railways, do people have in the way of soldering irons / flux / solder?

[Puffed Out]

Screwfix supplied my Fine Point soldering iron, flux.  Amazon for the Solder.

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Soldering Iron is basic 40w, (but a 25w maybe better). €10, Laco flux 60g €4.25.

8 pack of 0.8mm Cored Solder from Amazon, total of 160gram. for £16.99. I thought why buy one.  There other cheaper reels of solder.  But the container of the solder makes it easier for dispensing from it's own container.

[Chrissaf]

Yorkshire Dad

Always the same …. solder never flows unless I use lots of heavy duty plumber's flux (messy), dry looking or low strength joins, solder that either forever clings to else never wants to cling to the iron

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You might benefit from reading my Soldering tutorial see link below.

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From your description of soldering woes. I suspect your issue is not keeping the Soldering iron bit shiny by using a 'brass wool pot' between each and every soldering action. I also suspect that you are trying to cut costs by using cheap 'lead free' solder. For effortless soldering you need to spend the extra cash and buy the more expensive 60/40 lead/tin solder. Increasing the wattage of the iron is not a good thing at all unless you're soldering a heat shunt. Normal wire soldering onto tags shouldn't need a high wattage iron. All my electrical wire work is done with a 15 watt Antex. I've been soldering professionally 1969 - 2005 and as a hobbyist from 1965 to the present day.

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/faq-how-to-solder-for-model-railways/

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TIP: As a relative newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

.

See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[96RAF]

I would support Chris’s assumption about lead free solder.

 

I use a 15W Antex iron with 60/40 realflux cored solder and never have a problem even soldering droppers to rails with that iron. The secret is clean surfaces to be soldered and decent solder.

 

I change the standard 2.3 mm tip for a 0.5 mm tip and I can then confidently solder SMD leds, decoders and other delicate components..

[Yorkshire Dad]

Good soldering advice, thanks.  I had rather lazily assumed lead-based solder had been outlawed, though I can certainly say my soldering messes have increased markedly since the lead free stuff found its way into my collection

(Also, one day, I might be tempted to push the blue square with the white arrow which everyone warns against touching ... just to see what it does do!)

[ColinB]

Those ceramic capacitors that Hornby use are a liability, the one on my class 66 actually went short circuit as the loco was running round the layout. I wouldn't have minded but it took out the DCC decoder and its replacement until I figured out what was wrong. I imagine the capacitor must be at its voltage limit so any unforseen event can damage them (at inductive spike of voltage on the motor can be up to 200 volts). I worked in electronics and remember reading an article years ago saying not to use them, they were popular on cheap Japenese radios in the 70's. Lima used to use better ones. As to soldering and irons, "lead free" solder if I remember melts at a higher temperature and it is much easier to get what we call "dry joints" where the solder doesn't flow properly. One of my jobs was on car radios and because of enviroment issues and legislation, we converted to "lead free" solder in production and for the first year had no end of issues with soldered joints failing. As to a soldering iron, I use a Weller temperature controlled iron but that is only because I acquired it from one of my previous jobs, they are super expensive but good. I recently bought a cheap iron off EBay (£10), which I needed to solder the new temperature sensor in my Weller that was broken and I was really surprised it worked really well. I think you can now get reasonably priced temperature controlled ones. The big thing about soldering, is place the soldering iron on the thing to be soldered, and flow the solder onto it. That is what I was taught at Marconis, but don't leave the iron on the job for very long, else other things will melt. Where a lot of people go wrong is they melt the solder onto the iron and then dab it on the job. I use Ersin 60/40 very thin solder, it is what I have used since I worked at Marconi Avionics, I bought some recently off EBay, it was surprisingly cheap.

[Chrissaf]

The lead solder ban only applies to plumbing of drinking water.

No such ban on electrical work (except in commercial manufacturing, due to fumes etc).