What is it with my Loco's??? Need Help with my 'BR (Late) Class J15 '65464'

[Chrissaf]

Oh..I have just ordered one of these - LNER 0-6-0 '7942' J15 Class - Era 3 - do this mean they are unreliable?

I hope not as it will be my only proper loco.

Keith

[JJ73]

Hiya

Oh - well Keith may be it's just mine & not all of them - when will yours arrive???

When mines does decide to work - it works well!!!

& what do you mean by....

 

it will be my only proper loco

[Modelnut19]

Is the plug at the tender end of the wire properly pushed in? Please do this very carefully. 

It could be a broken wire that is not always making contact.

Since it is fairly new, it would be worth contacting Hornby. Personally I have often found them to be surprisingly helpful.

I would not poke around it too much without being sure how the body comes off first.

Have you tried checking the pick up from the various wheels methodically? This might prove something about where any broken wire could be. 

I am sorry I cannot be more help.

[Chrissaf]

I also highly recommend that the official Hornby X6468 plug extractor is used to reduce the risk of breaking these very delicate wires.

[JJ73]

@ Modelnut :- Don't be sorry - some thing is better than nothing - Thank you

 

@ Chris :- I'll take alook at hat & have  a think - thank you

[Going Spare]

While you are pondering the tender plug extractor tool, check that the backs of all loco and tender wheel rims are clean and that the pick-ups are making good contact with the back of those rims on all 12 wheels at all times (the wheels will be able to move sideways, possibly breaking contact with their pick-up wipers).

[ColinB]

Does the tender plug extractor tool actually work? I find with a lot of these extractor tools there is not enough of the connector for the extractor to grip. I use two very thin electrical scewdrivers one either side, to lever it out. It is also a more gentle way to do it. As for the loco, if it is still under guarantee, return it to Hornby, that way you get it fixed properly and they learn that they need to spend more money on Quality Assurance. Did you know China accepts 10% failure rate on most of its products, it doesn't think this is an issue.

It sounds like some wire is not connected properly. What I have seen in the past is the dummy DC header in the tender not being fully pushed it. It could even be the motor brushes occasionally get stuck, either way get Hornby to fix it. The connector wires are crimped, it could be a bad crimp.

What you could do, hopefully Chrissaf will agree, lever off the plug either with the tool or two screwdrivers very carefully, now if you look at the plug the pins at the top and bottom are loco pickups, the inner ones are motor input. With some single solid wire, connect the outer to the inner for each side of the connector. The loco should know run without the tender, if if runs without any issues then the fault is in the tender. Chrissaf am I right about the connections? I know that is the way all the ones I have worked are wired but I am not sure whether they are all the same.  I am surprised nobody makes a dummy socket as a test tool.

[Chrissaf]

I have the X6468 extraction tool and I have an A4 with the 4 way plug and socket. I find the tool is a perfect fit on the plug and extracts it effortlessly. The tool is designed to be an exact fit for this particular plug.

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Colin, it may be that your experience of similar tools is marred by the tools being of a more generic nature to use on a range of connector size and types. So don't knock it till you've tried one.

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These four way plugs and sockets for which the tool is designed for are only found in 'TTS Ready' steam locos where the speaker and decoder go in the tender and the motor is in the loco. The assignment of the 4 wires is consistent across all Steam locos that use this exact same plug and socket.

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The function of the four wires are (correctly identified by Colin):

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Two wires transfer loco wheel pickups to the decoder in the tender and the other two wires are the wires from the decoder to the motor in the loco. Thus the loco will not run without having the tender attached OR the loco plug is connected to a home made 'loop back' socket using an X9958 socket, where the loco then becomes a DC Analogue loco. This can be used to test the loco, to eliminate it from being at fault, thereby proving the fault into the tender.

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[walkingthedog]

To be honest Jj I think your problems are caused by running your trains on the floor. 

[atom3624]

Must admit I often have problems with the extractor tool, and prefer the careful small blade screwdriver each side technique.

 

I still think this design is flawed. I should permit direct locomotive power, perhaps with a 'power disconnect' switch in the locomotive if DCC / TTS fitted.

 

I have come across a couple of locomotives with poorly located blade pickups, but must admit, it does sound like a loose wire, and more probably than not, it'll be that 4-cable plug.

Mention was made to check the pickups, and the backs of the wheels - definitely worth doing.

 

Al.

[Chrissaf]

1st it was my 'Evening Star' (I think it was) that something went wrong - now fixed  😀 then the tiny little screw fell off the coupling ron on my 'H-Class' & that's been sorted thank you very much  😀

Now it is the turn of my R3416 - BR (Late) Class J15 '65464'

 

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Some times it works  😀 & some times it doesn't  ☹️ it's as if it has a life of its on - 'shall I work today - naaa' - then all of a sudden it goes  🤔

What's up with it - as you can see below - there is a wire going from thr loco to the tender - not sure if that has any thing to do with it or not???

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I got it from the 'Last of the Private Owners' set (R3930) but you can just buy it on its own (R3416) - My Lay out is not digtal - just analogue & using @ the Mo both of my H & M Duette & 2000 - nothing wrong with them - nothing wrong with the track - just checked it with another working Loco - it just some thing wrong with J15!!!???!!!

Thank you in advance

 

JJ

[JJ73]

Why has my thread been moved to here??? - I don't have digital - only analogue!!!

Any way I've just taken the cover of the tender & it looks like there are NO pick-ups on the tender - only on the Loco itself - the coloured wires seem to be for the Chip (which I'm not using & there is a space for a speaker which I don't want!!!) Now it is down to the Loco again

[ColinB]

Actually Chrissaf it is not that reason at all. I have spent a fortune many times on special tools to find they dont work. It is a bit like in the old days of socketted ICs, you would buy the special tool and then find that this is insufficient gap under the IC for the tool to fit, so you resort to the two screwdrivers method. Similarly, with socket extraction tools if the socket is a very tight fit and the plug has been pushed fully home, quite often there is not enough room to get the extractor on. I did say I had never used the tool, perhaps I will buy one and see if it works. As to the connectors, they are standard PCB connectors, they are called JST. You can buy them in different pitches (distance between pins) all Hornby have done is get a PCB designed that fits into the tender and fit the socket with thin black wire. You can buy the bare connectors off EBay, unfortunately they are a pain to wire up they are so small, the Chinese probably have a special crimping tool. Hornby don't have a big enough market to design their own connector, where I used to work in automotive we did design our own connector, but eventually went to standard connectors as it was cheaper. If I had spent more time on PCB design, I could probably get them made, a board that size would cost pennies, or in my field cents. 

[keithp1707821843]

Hiya

Oh - well Keith may be it's just mine & not all of them - when will yours arrive???

When mines does decide to work - it works well!!!

& what do you mean by....

 

it will be my only proper loco

Hello

It arrives Monday - and it is my first loco apart from the 0-4-0 Mitchel coal loco and the 1990's 0-4-0 xmas special.

It is a new one from Hornby - so hopefully will be ok - and I do not have any form of digital control - just the original 1990's controller.

Keith

[Chrissaf]

As to the connectors, they are standard PCB connectors, they are called JST. You can buy them in different pitches (distance between pins)

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Colin,

You are teaching a 'Grandmother to suck eggs'.

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If you looked at my posting history you will find that I have documented JST connectors very frequently on this forum. Down to the level of quoting manufacturer JST part numbers for connectors used by Hornby. Hornby use these connectors a lot for all sorts of things due to their small compact size. I have used JST connectors for years and terminated many of them myself as part of my electronics hobby even down to the tiniest 2 pin JST variety. Crimping the smaller pins takes real patience and some skill.

[ColinB]

Well I ordered the extraction tool, so we will see, funny it is cheaper on the Hornby site, but unfortunately their P&P is a bit prohibitive. The reviews don't look that good (basically cheap and nasty) and looking at it, it looks like one of those IC socket removal tools I mentioned earlier, but we will see if it works.

[Chrissaf]

Well it works well for me on my particular A4, even if it doesn't work as well for you. The connector (plug) was tight initially, but now slips in and out easily with the tool (but not loose).

[ColinB]

Sorry Chrissaf, I know but unfortunately you said I was being let down by using the wrong tool, I wasn't . I mean if you really tried, you could probably get it out with a pair of Lindstrom Wire Cutters, but not a good idea. Generally, those tools are usually too bulky to fit in the space, hence the two screwdriver method, but we will see.

[walkingthedog]

I had one of the tools and it worked perfectly. Cheap, cheerful and does its job.  

[Chrissaf]

you said I was being let down by using the wrong tool

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That might be your interpretation. But that is not what I said at all.

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I wrote (quote below)

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it may be that your experience of similar tools is marred by the tools being of a more generic nature to use on a range of connector size and types.

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At no time did I say 'using the wrong tool'. My phrase was meant to convey that tools can be the right & recommended tool, but be multi-purpose in nature to cater for a range of sizes within a specific connector range and connector types within a specific manufacturer range such as JST. Such that the manufacturer does not have to make a different tool for each and every connector that they make. Thus the tool might need to be a design compromise to cater for all.

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I was just pointing out that the Hornby extractor is designed specifically for the four way JST connector and no other, and also designed to work with the JST connector when fitted to Hornby locos, to take into account access to, and the physicality of the plug / socket installation.

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Based upon his post above. WTD's experience of the Hornby extractor appears to be similar to my own.

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Anyway enough said, as this thread is digressing well away from the original topic.

[JJ73]

Yes you are right Chris :-

Anyway enough said, as this thread is digressing well away from the original topic.

By u 2 'bickering on' doesn't really help me!!! Any way this is what I've done so far...

I've taken her apart...

 

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& I take it that those 2 'brass tong' in the photo below (for which I am poing too) are the 'pick ups' for the motor???

 

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I've put 'power' to those 2 'brass tongs' & still no joy  ☹️

[JJ73]

I'm trying to look for a 'Service Sheet' & it say 'Enter a SKU, product name or resource name in the text field below' but having no luck / joy what ever I type in!!!

 

This is what I've done so far...

 

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[Chrissaf]

JJ I have moved your post back here as it really is a continuation of the same issue.

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What is a SKU has been recently asked before. Rather than reinvent the wheel review the recent post and answer.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/sku-number-for-service-sheet/

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Ignore the SKU and type J15 into the search box instead and you will find HSS 413 for the DCC Ready J15. Remember that these 'Service Sheets' usually download silently in the background when you click the blue 'Download' link. So if nothing appears to happen, check your nominated browser download folder.

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[JJ73]

Ok thank Chris  😀

[ColinB]

I don't have one of these locos, but I assume the brass things you are pointing to, press against the loco pickup plate when the loco is together. When you did your test did you have the tender connected? You need to do this as power flows from the loco to the tender and back to the loco via the 4 pin connector. Most of these locos pickup power from loco and tender, so usually at least on of them works. Can you get to the motor connections? It might be an idea to connect straight to the motor and at least check it works before going any further.