What is it with my Loco's??? Need Help with my 'BR (Late) Class J15 '65464'

[Going Spare]

No, Jj, the pick-ups are shown in the first of your latest set of photographs: they are attached to the plastic moulding at centre right and bear on the backs of the driving wheels.  Have a look at service sheet 413, where you will see that there are similar pick-ups on the tender as well.  Applying power to the "brass tongs" will not cause the motor to run because electricity has to run to the tender and back to the motor because the decoder socket is in the tender.  As Colin says, while you have the loco dismantled, apply power directly to the motor to see that that works correctly.  You need to problem-solve part by part to see where it is - there are several possibilities: a faulty motor, a poor or loose connection, a loose decoder blanking plate, pick-ups not making good contact, etc.

[JJ73]

Yes Colin - I have taken her completely apart & found the 2 connectors of the motor :- 

 

/media/tinymce_upload/ac54870f3722bdaf3f44609f45fbd70d.JPG

 

Got a wire from the controller & the motor works fine  😀

 

/media/tinymce_upload/7b64a46d2c81ac497bba0ab2e6e597c0.JPG

 

Also G.S. Thank you for telling me about those 2 'Tongs' & I've aleady got Sevice sheet 413 on the next tab - thank you  😀

[JJ73]

What I am thinking is may be getting a 'X9958' as Chris said on P. 1 - cos  I am using Analogue & NOT digital - I don't really need the gubins from the Tender - so I need to blank it off!!!

[ColinB]

That sounds great, so now you work back. This where it gets a bit fiddly. With the tender connected apply power to the inner two pins on the 4 pin connector at the front of the tender, hopefully you can get to it. Be very careful, there will be 4 wires connecting it to the DCC socket at the back, you do not want to disturb these. The motor should run. Next put power on pins 1 and 5 of the 8 pin DCC connector, there should be a dot on the DCC connector to tell you pin 1. Again does the motor run?

It might be easier to to put power on pins 1 and 5 first, they are are probably easier to get to. If the motor doesn't run then check the 4 pin connector as I said previously.

[Chrissaf]

I don't really need the gubbins from the Tender - so I need to blank it off !!

.

Bad idea JJ. The Tender has got additional pickups (item 10 highlighted below) on it to supplement the ones on the loco. If you isolate the tender by using a X9958 as a DIY loop back, then you are loosing the benefit of those extra pickups.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/8793db293034f322212289292de2adb5.jpg

.

[ColinB]

Right, I am not bickering, but before he does anything with the pickups he needs to establish he has continuity with the motor through the DCC connector and the DCC socket. It should still work even if one set of pickups are not working, unless both have got fluff on them, from running on the floor. I think he has a badly crimped joint or bad soldered joint on the DCC socket.

[JJ73]

This is getting exciting!!!  😀  😉 

 

@ Colin - WOW I put the white 4 pin plug back in to the tender & the motor worked - see photos :- 

 

/media/tinymce_upload/2dff9dd086e9df238133abef92429bfb.JPG

 

/media/tinymce_upload/6a15a126901d16fac33ea062579ac5d3.JPG

 

Are you saying that I needed to cut any wires??? - just double checking!!!

apply power to the inner two pins on the 4 pin connector at the front of the tender, hopefully you can get to it. Be very careful, there will be 4 wires connecting it to the DCC socket at the back, you do not want to disturb these. The motor should run

Yes the motor did run with the wire connecting the 2 inner pins

 

Can't see the "Next put power on pins 1 and 5 of the 8 pin DCC connector"

 

/media/tinymce_upload/8c88775a5e3179c1546bb6dd97a4de01.JPG

 

/media/tinymce_upload/3bf0deb1d06b2d1979f916691a3a7b94.JPG

Which ones are they - not sure - Do I need to take any thing off here???

 

@ Chris :- @ 1st I didn't see them extra pick ups!!! but at a closer inspection - I see them now!!! That's that idea blown out of the water!!!  😆 😉 😀

[Chrissaf]

Does this help JJ

Touch your controller wires on the Orange (Pin 1) & Grey (Pin 5) pins is what Colin is saying. Or remove the decoder plug and touch the corresponding Orange & Grey socket holes with the controller wires. With the white 4 way plug inserted between loco and tender the motor should spin.

.

If it does, touch your wires on the Red & Black pins (decoder plugged in, this time) the motor should still spin but maybe not as fast. BUT ONLY if the decoder is working OK and is 'DC Operation' enabled.

.

If the motor spins with the wires on Red & Black, then put the controller wires on the wheel pickups. The ones I have just told you about. If the motor still spins, then your fault has cleared itself and the loco should run on the track when restored to it.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/a6fe4d4fe03faec1c87806b48678dda8.jpg

.

[JJ73]

Arr much better Chris  - That does help thanks  😀

[Chrissaf]

Post bumped because you visited the thread too early whilst I was still editing it.

[ColinB]

No, don't cut anything, do ever do that. Right, so if I get this right you have the tender on the rails so it looks like the connection from tender pickups to loco is ok., so you don't need to do any of my tests. If you put the loco back together I am sure it will work. Right now the issue is why is it intermittant. 

So it could be one of the following :

   that the 4 pin connector was not pushed fully in and was only making partial contact.

   one of the crimped wires in the connector is not crimped properly so when you took it apart and put it back together it it sort of fixed itself.

 one of the wires to the DCC socket is not soldered properly, so by messing around it is making contact at the moment.

What I suggest you do is put it back together, but don't put the bodies on and check the loco still runs. Be very careful putting the loco pickups back, they are very easy to damage. Leave the bodies off for a couple of days and check the loco still runs ok. Once you are happy put the bodies back on. It could just have been fluff and you taking it apart has cleaned it out, or it could be that the connecter was not pushed fully in, it is very small and very tight fitting.

Please let me know how you get on.

 

[JJ73]

Ok - I tested the 2 middle inner pins on the connect - tick  😀 works

 

Ok - I tested the Orange (Pin 1) & Grey (Pin 5) pin  (from Chris enharced photo of mine - Clever Chris) - tick 😀 works

 

Ok - I tested the  Red & Black pins ("BUT ONLY if the decoder is working OK and is 'DC Operation' enabled.") I don't know to enable it or disable it so I just left it how it is!!! - tick  😀 works

 

Ok - Found it difficult  with the wheel pickups - so I touched the wheels which are touching the wheels pick ups which make the Motor Move!!!  - tick 😀 works

 

Sorry for 'bumping the post' Chris 

[JJ73]

As per-usual I am documenting this / making a vid as I go along  😀Just to let you Lovely Helpful folk know

[ColinB]

OK put it back together as in my earlier post, don't put the bodies on. It might be that the connector was not pushed fully home, or had some dirt on it. Pulling it apart and putting it back together might have given you a better connection.

[JJ73]

the 4 pin connector was not pushed fully in and was only making partial contact.

I've just it in as far as it can go - hopefully a better connection!!!

 

one of the crimped wires in the connector is not crimped properly so when you took it apart and put it back together it it sort of fixed itself.

Just had a look & seems ok (gave a little push) hopefully it ok

 

one of the wires to the DCC socket is not soldered properly, so by messing around it is making contact at the moment.

Soldering look ok - I shall now partly put the Loco back together again (leaving the bodies off for a few days like you said Colin) & see what happens!!! 

 

Hopefully I can remember which bit went where!!! Well I did spent 90 weeks building a 3D Printer from a 'Part-Works' 90 Weekly Mag!!!

 

Also you know when some thing goes wrong with your computer & the old advise is "Have you turn it OFF & ON again???" well it feels a bit like that!!!   😆 he he - but a Loco train version of that!!!

[JJ73]

Pulling it apart and putting it back together might have given you a better connection.

What did I just say about the OFF / ON computer thing!!!  😆 Ha Ha

 

Great minds think alike???!!!???

[ColinB]

What sometines happens with connectors is they get covered in oxide and become insulators, so by pulling them apart and putting them back together it scrapes off the oxide. I must admit for this connector I doubt if this were the case the loco passes too much current, but quite often on computers it does work, but you never know. When I was quite young I remember going round computer boards with an ink rubber getting rid of oxide on connectors. Hopefully it was just not pushed fully home. anyway we will see. The trouble with intermittant faults you cannot send it back to the manufacturer because all they will do is say it works ok. On my late wife's Renault Clio when it was new it occasionally would not start, it was only 3 months old, I thought I will take it back then I realised that they are never going to find it. I then remembered when I worked on fuel injection systems for Ford, if a certain sensor didn't work the car wouldn't start. All I did was pull the connector to it off and push it back on and it fixed the issue. Its been ok ever since.

[JJ73]

Well Glad you got your cars fixed - & hopefully may be it was just a case off the plug not being pushed in all the way - took me a while to put it back  together - easy taking things apart - putting back together - That's a whole new Ball game!!! Like the 'Pivot Pin for Drive Shaft' - that was a bit of an 'Ball ache' trying to get that back in!!!

 

Now I've put all the bit back together again (a part from the 2 bodies) Now it is test time...

 

GOOOOOD MORRRNNIINNNG HORNBY FORUM!!! 

Well I've done a 'Forward Test' & a 'Backward Test' (Even with wagons) - Good results - seems to be working well (For the time being!!!)

 Thank you Colin, Chris, Going Spare  😀 I knew I can rely on you Lovely Folk  😎

[keithp1707821843]

Hello

I have re-read this thread several times and I have to say it is beyond my current level of expertise. My loco arrives tomorrow - but can I assume that I would not have these problems/ issues? 

Keith

[Chrissaf]

If you do .... just send it back for refund / replacement.

[96RAF]

Hello

I have re-read this thread several times and I have to say it is beyond my current level of expertise. My loco arrives tomorrow - but can I assume that I would not have these problems/ issues? 

Keith

 

Wait and see what its like. Maybe JJ got the Friday afternoon dodgy one.

[ColinB]

Only time will tell, but hopefully it was just the 4 pin connector not pushed in fully. It has happend to me, it is so small and modern locos are so detailed that you don't want to push too hard in case you break something. I bought a Heljan EM2 off EBay, it was brand new and never run. I tried it and it wouldn't run. Sending things back is a pain, so I opened it up ( I would have to do this eventually to fit the DCC chip) and found the DC blank board wasn't pushed fully home. So if in JJs case it wasn't pushed fully in, it would occasionally make contact. Either way we will have to wait and see. Trouble is model railway locos are difficult for the non engineering based person, I remember when I was a child my dad was useless at anything electric, so if the loco went wrong I would have to get one of my uncles to fix it (they were all electrical engineers).

[JJ73]

@ Keith / Raf  :- 

it is beyond my current level of expertise.

Me too - If I hadn't ask for help from these Lovely Folk - then I wouldn't know what to do - i.e. know what points to touch with the wire on the chip - but both Colin & Chris done a great job of explaining it!!! - I think you've got to do the actions as well as just reading it - if you do the actions - then it helps to understand it - it's like a few yrs ago I had never built a 3D Printer b4 - but each weekly part came with mag with detail instructions & plus there was a tutorial on-line video to help to explain things & after 90 weeks I had built it - yes it was a bit 'fiddley' on the way& had a little help from others cos of missing parts - but at the end I had built myself a 3D Printer for which I'd NEVER had done b4!!! As the say 'Every day is a school day' & your learn from others & alone the way!!!

Maybe JJ got the Friday afternoon dodgy one.

Well I did kinda say that Raf

Oh - well Keith may be it's just mine & not all of them

Well I come your runs well Keith  😀 I'd be interested either way - Let me know - Thanks

[keithp1707821843]

Ok cheers.

As I say, it arrives tomorrow and my baseboard is finished now, the track is laid - but not pinned so I can do the 'running in', bit, that will show whether it is ok.

Glad yours is ok now though.

Keith

[ColinB]

Well if it is any consolation JJ, I won a loco on EBay, it turned up and I ran in along the track to check it worked. The motor turned but no motion to the wheels. Eventually took it apart to find the plastic drive gear was split and Hornby have no spares left. Fortunately, they use the same gear in other locos so I managed to get one from a spare set of wheels for a West Country, which I had bought just for the valve gear(again Hornby had ran out of spare parts). After a mornings work, I got it to work, but then the question is "did the Seller know it was broken before they sold it". The question you can never answer. The Seller did say I could return it, so I assume they didn't know.