types of point motors

[bagnalldave]

Hi all,

I am in the middle of planning  a new layout  using the new elite controller. My question is,

can I use a point motor such as the tortoise ones (slow action type ) or do I have to use a solinoid type, the either way motor needs to be mounted beneath the baseboard, 

Many thanks

[Rog RJ]

You can use whatever point motors you like as long as you use the correct point decoder between the Elite and the point motors.  Some point motors, such as the Cobalt IP digital,  have an inbuilt decoder and don't need an additional, separate decoder.

[Bulleidboy]

Hi - I use Cobalt IP Digital point motors, and they work well.  I have them programmed into my Elite, but they are far easier and quicker to operate using a switch - they are wired for both. You need an on-off-on switch sprung to centre (Off). BB

[96RAF]

The disadvantage of using DCC to operate point motors is the sheer number of key strokes you have to make on the controller to get them to fire. Some controllers are more onerous than others in this respect.

[Chrissaf]

...can I use a point motor such as the tortoise ones (slow action type).

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Just be aware that the Tortoise Motor is a 'stall motor' that requires a 2 wire connection. As such, it is not compatible with the Hornby R8247 Accessory Decoder which only works with 3 wire point motors.

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Even though (in principle) you can configure a R8247 for 'always on' to suit 'stall' point motors. The R8247 cannot output a 2 wire connection that reverses polarity to choose direction of point operation which is what a Tortoise motor needs.

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I'm not aware of any current DCC Accessory Decoder that is designed specifically for the Tortoise Motor. I believe most manufacturers consider the Tortoise to have had its day and loosing interest with modellers due to its extremely large size. It has been around for a long time and better suited to DC Analogue control.

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I have a two transistor circuit on file in my electronics projects database that would do the necessary conversion from 3 wire to 2 wire reversing operation. But even though it is a cheap simple circuit, I still wouldn't use it to convert a R8247 Accessory Decoder to support Tortoise motors. The reason being that if all four ports on a R8247 were converted to operate a Tortoise, the constant 'stall' current draw of the four Tortoise point motors would impact on the limited current that the R8247 can deliver to all ports simultaneously when they are configured for 'always on' operation.

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[bagnalldave]

thanks to all,

one final question can the hornby switch motor be fditted beneath the base board

BD

[jane1707819582]

The 8014 will work underneath , it has an extension arm to work the point .

[Chrissaf]

Just to be aware that the R8014 needs a slight physical modification to fit completely underneath a baseboard. The vertical mounting tags need to be bent over at 90° then secured by a screw and large washer. This web page gives more details:

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https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/electrics-point-motors-placement.htm

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[The Duke 71000]

Fulgurex point mechanisms (of Lausanne Switzerland)

Contrary to what a number of British shops have told me, Fulgurex assured me in February that they have NO intention to delete this item, and they currently have large stocks available. Like Rolls Royces no prices are given on Fulgarex's website but as far as I'm aware these items still work out at under £10.00 each. (A case load of 20 point motors gains a discount.) There is a picture under "Accessories" on their website of this mechanism. You can phone direct, as their staff do speak English, and obviously they take plastic.  

 

The Fulgurex  point motors. These are a slow action motor driven type, that wind points across gently, and gently press the blades home. They also come with two free switches, with space to add two more switches. The two switches provided can be used to control the "Live Frog" of such points, and interlock a point with a signal for example. Extra switches are available from Fulgurex, and Peco also have a similar switch in their range that also fits, these simply bolt onto the baseplate with the bolts already provided, and I have used a Peco substitute in the past, when a mechanism was damaged erecting one of my exhibition layouts at a show.

 

The Fulgurex point mechanism screws to the underside of the baseboard, in any direction that is suitable as long as one or other end of the mechanism can be screwed against the lower end of the brass crank. Which helpfully allows for problems of baseboard crossbracing otherwise getting in the way. 

 

This mechanism unlike others comes with a shaped brass 1mm diameter crank, in a brass sleeve, to connect the point mechanism to a 1mm hole in the tiebar of the point above. If your point tiebar doesn't have a 1mm hole you can simply drill one.  The crank rotates slightly to move the tiebar. The mechanism will operate any scale from N to O gauge.

 

It requires a 12v DC supply, and is operated most simply by a Double Pole Double Throw (DPDT) No Centre Off type mini toggle switch, with 6 contacts. In other words the switch reverses the current to reverse the direction of the mechanism. For a crossover two points can be wired to one switch.

 

Mechanism size:

80mm long by 45mm wide, and ONLY 28mm high.  

 

Only known Problem:

The Instruction sheet is unfortunately useless, (even though English is now included) because in Europe most track ranges have floating hair sprung blades, with virtually no resistance and the instructions cater for this type. They don't as a result take into consideration Peco points with their "click-click" type action. Or in my case handbuilt points, which have a little more resistance to the blades movement. The mechanism itself will operate all types including Peco & Handbuilt if you follow my alterations to installation below.

 

Solution

Contrary to the instructions. Only use two screws (not four) one at each diagonally opposing corner and do not do the screws up tight, but allow the mechanism a little movement which will remove most stresses during actuation. They will make a bit of noise if screwed direct to a wooden baseboard. I therefore use half the instruction sheet as packing to deaden any sound. Further the blister pack itself can be used as a dust cover, if you cut slots in it to allow for the wiring, and simply pin it over the mechanism with drawing pins or similar. 

 

Screw the mechanism so it touches the lower end of the brass rod (under the baseboard). Do NOT leave the gap as shown in the instructions. This will increase the power applied to the brass rod to overcome resistance in Peco or handbuilt points, and stops the brass rod from bending. (You MUST also remove the hair spring in any Peco point, or this can result in momentary short circuits, because the mechanism moves the blades a second before the switch controlling a live frogs polarity changes.) Because this mechanism has positive controlled action of the blades at all times, the blades can't move by themselves, which avoids problems created by some solenoid type mechanisms.

 

Once installed the mechanism needs to be tested to ensure the blades move fully in each direction. If they don't this maybe because you haven't got the designed tension in the brass crank correct. This can be increased by moving the brass crank at its under baseboard end to the adjacent hole in the moving actuation bar. If that does not help then above the baseboard the crank can be removed from the tiebar and rotated in the opposite direction to the way you wish it to move further effectively bending it slightly before replacing it back in the tiebar hole. A third option is to actually loosen the bolts holding the relevant switch that is turning the motor off slightly to soon, and very carefully twisting the whole switch mounting very slightly outwards, before re-tightening the bolts, to allow the actuation bar to travel very slightly further, before switching off the motor.  

    

TIP. Possible stresses during actuation or oil/grease from the brass threaded screw on the mechanism, can result in this brass threaded screw coming loose at one or both ends in its plastic mountings. This brass screw then itself starts rotating, which it mustn't. if this happens you will hear a whirring as the motor goes into warp factor 9, but does not move the blades, and does not switch off. To save yourself crawling around under the layout in a panic trying to solve the problem. A little drop of Superglue on the little plastic clip each end of the brass threaded screw, to clue it to the clips, will prevent this problem ever occurring.     

 

Having used literally hundreds of Fulgurex motors on all my exhibition layouts for over 30 years. Once installed and adjusted so they are working correctly, they will happily take a pounding during exhibitions without problems for years. I've never had one conk out, although after some years the brass crank may need a slight adjustment. The only other item to watch out for, are the tiny little sprung plates in each accessory switch. Should you accidentally touch these, they might spring out and get lost. As Peco sell an identical switch (around £1.50) you can buy one of those and transfer the spring plate from that to the one on your point mechanism.   

The Duke 71000