R8014 Point Motors

[Injury20]

Hi folks,

 

Just a quick one, I have receieved my first point motor today, Hornby R8014.  (only ordered one for now to use a pattern for laying the track, I will order the remainding 8 motors when funds availble) I will be mounting under the base board. reading the instructions i can cut out 40x25mm hole directly under the points and attach to the point or just make a hole big enough for the extension rod and mount to the board itself.

 

What would you experienced guys recommend as the best of the two options.  My layout is at the stage where i can do either option and it is a DCC layout controlled via elink and railmaster, and I'm about to start my buswiring the weekend.

 

thanks in advance

 

my current layout thread so far can be found here - https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/newbie-to-forum-and-modelling/?p=1

[Chrissaf]

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Swings & roundabouts. Pros & cons.

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Directly mounting to the point, gives 100% guaranteed physical alignment. Something that can cause issues for some using under-board fitting.

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Under-board fitting means having to slightly modify the R8014 (bend over the mounting tabs then use screws and washers to fit) and fiddle about to get the physical alignment spot on.

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Directly mounting leaves a big hole in the baseboard which means some kind of cover has to be fabricated (usually plasticard or thin card) to cover the hole if you want to apply glued down scenic ballast.

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Under-board fitting only requires a small hole for the pin making ballast installation easier.

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Direct mounting means that the R8014 extension pin does not need to be fitted.

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Under-board fitting, means that the extension pin has to be crimped glued to the existing motor pin. This can become loose and the crimped joint can fail in time.

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Those are the pros & cons .... you make your own choice.

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[RDS]

I mounted mine directly to the underside of the point, by routing out the bottom of the board.  I didn't go full depth but left about 3mm so that I did not finish up with a big hole all the way through. 

 

I started off by routing a Capital I shaped slot from the top (track side) to accomodate the side to side movement of the Solenoid pin and the Solenoid tabs that need to interface with the point.  I then made a jig to enable me to determine exactly where the lower routing needed to be relative to the slot. 

 

From the top, this is virtually not seen but it took a lot of time to do this for 35 points!

 

The pictures show the view from underside and the same point pictured from the top.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/9751e4ff36dcd2a0fa87e302f6585c75.JPG/media/tinymce_upload/46f0e211d5e90704dc9fd8096dfe60bb.JPG

 

Before anyone asks - the 2/4* label means that this point is connected to Point Decoder 2, Port 4.  The * is because the port is shared with another point and they form a crossover from one track to the next.  And this is Point Motor Number 29.

[37lover]

RDS,

Very neat. Mine are mounted under the board but with some big holes to get through the baseboard and structure above because of the various falls in the track above. 

[96RAF]

I have mounted R8014s directly to the underneath of the points before and I have also mounted them topside, either direct to the tie-bar using the optional base and its little shed and also more remotely using a variety of DIY extension rods.

 

The latter method due in the main to tight trackwork geometry or because the little shed would look wrong at that location so I hid the motor at a distance in the ‘bushes’.

 

My new layout will be using R8243 surface mounted motors as fiddling about under the boards is getting beyond my aching bones these days.

[ColinB]

I attach then directly to the point, you get much better alignment. Also, if you have sat under a baseboard trying to get alignment you will see what I mean. I got a guy that sells 3D printing parts on EBay to 3D print covers that cover the hole (I have no business interest in the product), I just thought it was a good idea, life is too short to try making them out of card or plasticard and his line up directly with the point. I did initially make them out of card, believe me the 3D printed ones are much better, but some people like the challenge. So you put the cover on before you attach the motor. It also means if the point goes wrong you can lift the whole lot out as one. You can also get low power versions of this type of point from another manufacturer, which is better when using a capacator discharge unit (takes less time to recharge). 

[Injury20]

Thanks guys,

 

I'm going to go with the direct mount to the point option, the general theme from the advise here is lining up will be better.  As i already have a decent router anyway I may aswell give it a whirl.

 

I have a car creeper on order which should be delivered courtesy of our online friends named after a certain rain forest alongside my soldering kit and  bus wire so I will be putting it through its paces the weekend.

[RDS]

I don't know what you intend regarding the Car Creeper but I am very concerned if it is to do with Routing out pockets under your board.  You may end up wishing you had chosen a different user name for this Forum.

[Gordonvale]

I attach directly to the point and use a 45mm hole saw rather than mess about with "rectangular".

A bit of paper, painted to match the baseboard, covers the hole.

[Injury20]

I don't know what you intend regarding the Car Creeper but I am very concerned if it is to do with Routing out pockets under your board.  You may end up wishing you had chosen a different user name for this Forum.

Haha, I do have that username for a reason, I still have a black thumb and hole in my nail from slipping with my impact driver whilst constructing the baseboard.  The car creeper will be used for me to lay on whilst doing the wiring etc,  I took the tips off here of painting the underside of the base board white during construction.  

 

I made the holes for the points with my router last night with success and no major injuries...

[RDS]

 with success and no major injuries...

I am glad about that!

[Injury20]

I have now begun fitting point motors on my layout (direct to points) I am using R8247 decoders for linking to railmaster.  Question on Power, can the decoders be connected to the buswire as a power source or do I need a seperate power source??  I will be using 4 x R8247 to control 8 x R8014 and 1 x surface motor for the 9 points, and 3 uncouplers (at a later date)

 

Thanks

[96RAF]

You can use controller A in RM to control both locos and points in which case your acc decoders will connect to the track bus. There is no separate power source for Hornby acc decoders.

...but if like me you have an Elite AND an eLink, you can use the Elite as RM controller A to run just the locos and eLink as RM controller B to run your just the acc decoders from a separate points bus.

 

Points to note...

1. When programming your acc decoders they must be the only thing connected to the programming track.

2. If you elect to go down the two controller (A & B) route then you need to change your RM trackplan designation for each point in turn to point to the second controller.

... sorry about all the ‘point’ refs -  no pun intended.

 

Ref 2.  - forum member St1ngR4y has a nifty app that allows you to easily perform this swap to a second controller without having to do it one by one. Sing out if you intend to use the dual Cont A and B configuration.

[Chrissaf]

Question on Power, can the decoders be connected to the bus-wire as a power source or do I need a separate power source??

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Although Rob has already answered this. I would just like to add. The R8247 are DCC decoders. Thus they have to be connected to a DCC power source provided by the controller you are connecting them to. So that they can receive their DCC commands, to tell them what to do. Thus connecting them to a power source separate from the controller is not a functional option.

[Injury20]

Thanks Raf96 & Crissaf for quick reply

 

I am only using elink and railmaster no other controller, and thanks for the tip on the program track, I have built a standalone one of these for my workbench so hopefully wont be a problem.

 

[Injury20]

Hey all,

 

Majority of track is now connected to buswire, next stage is the points I have had advise in my other thread on the best points for the droppers.  Before doing this I wanted to check the point operation.  So I have programmed my first decoder R8247 and had an R8014 switching on my programme track so progressed to the layout.  

 

I have wired up two of the point motors to the decoder so far, one works fine woohooo first attempt I was well impressed but the other only switches in one direction.  I can hear the point motor trying to operate when I hit the button on railmaster but it will only operate the point in one direction.

 

Any thoughts on what I can try before having to unpin the track to remove the point??

 

Thanks all

[96RAF]

Recheck your wiring to that point motor as if you have a wire crossed it will only work one way. 

 

Failing that is the motor mounted direct to the underside of the point or screwed to the baseboard under  the point. If the latter is it exactly central and not binding at all - i.e. can you move the point tie bar easily by hand from topside in each direction.

[Chrissaf]

Cross wired point motors

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/surface-point-motors/?p=1

[Injury20]

Hi RAF96,

 

I have the motors mounted directly to the points and can operate both directions using the tie bar above the point manually.  I will double check the wiring tomorrow just in case but i'm pretty sure they are connected exactly the same as the other point ""red to +, black to c, green to -"" as per maunal

[96RAF]

Given your wiring polarities are correct and the point action is free moving, then it has to be down to a dodgy connection or inadequate wiring, say too thin a gauge or too long a wire run to the control. It may just be a dodgy point motor. They are pretty reliable but a duff solder joint somewhere can affect performance under load especially if you rely on accessory decoders with a weedy inbuilt CDU rather than a hefty standalone CDU, but lets not distract you from basic fault finding first.

 

Quote from Rog(RJ) in the linked post as a reminder confirming your manual wiring code.

Hornby use the black wire as common © while Peco use green for common.

[RDS]

Within the last few weeks I have had to replace a faulty R8014 Point Motor, where the Point would work perfectly manually, using the tie bar.

[Injury20]

OK,  So wiring all looks correct, both points are wired directly to the decoder exactly the same way.  I have attached a pic, but that will take a few days to be approved.  I havent had to extend the wires for these two point motors so its the original wires from the motor to the decoder, although the other two motors will have to be extended when I connect.  With this in mind RAF96 surely the wiring and guage would be correct??

 

The direction of the point in question is the opposite direction to the working point. Should I try swapping the wiring round??  Or any other thoughts on what to try

[Injury20]

the motor going into port 3 on right of pic is the offending motor

/media/tinymce_upload/3ca096c690e660775325b231429860a8.jpg

[Chrissaf]

Transfer the wiring of the non-working point to the Accessory Decoder terminals of the working point. If the non working point starts working OK on the working decoder port then the issue would appear to be with your accessory decoder on the other port.

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If the non working point still doesn't work on the working decoder port, then the issue is still with the point motor and since the wiring seems to be OK, then suspect a faulty R8014 solenoid coil. You would need a multi-meter to measure resistance. A R8014 Solenoid coil resistance is typically somewhere in the 4 to 12 ohms range.

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As I keep on repeating myself time and time again on this forum. Anybody who is going to get involved in this hobby really needs to invest in a cheap multi-meter to perform electrical diagnostics. It really is poking in the dark wearing a blindfold without one.

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Hornby's R8014 wires are a tad on the thin side. OK for the length that is factory fitted, but over longer distances when extended, they should really be thicker. Hornby's R8014 wiring thickness is designed for their original design time period era i.e pre DCC Analogue where points were operated on higher voltages. DCC operation uses lower voltages thus thicker wires are needed to minimise voltage losses. The factory fitted wires are typically about 16/0.2mm or maybe 24/0.2mm wires. Ideally these wires should be (in my opinion) 32/0.2mm wires.

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[Injury20]

Thanks Chrisaff,  I will try that this evening after work.  I followed your advise and have myself a shiny new multimeter,  so far all I have used it for is checking the voltage in the track as I comlete my buswire (14.4v consistantly so far)

 

These two motors are direct to the decoder, the other two will have the wire extending with a thicker guage when I connect them.  Would I best to de-solder (is that a word?) the existing guage and attach thicker guage or just solder to the existing wire??  Don't want to risk damaging the point motor if I can help it

 

On the risk of sounding dangerously thick, how do i use my multimeter to check the point motor resitance??

 

thanks in advance