Hornby R230 Blue/Grey(?) Golden Arrow Pullman Parlour cars

[81F]

Dear All

 

I would be grateful if someone could advise me about this model.

 

I have four questions about this model as I cannot find much on the internet.

 

The first is about the model, I have four of these (all silver seal judging by the wheels)  but one has a much glossier roof. Is this odd one out likely to be a re-varnish or did the finish vary like some other Hornby Triang models made in the 1970s.

 

The next two are about the prototype(s)

 

I would like to make up a complete train using these so I am wondering what I could use to complete a five or six car train. For example, a possible bagage coach and/or break vehicle - would Mk1s be appropriate?

 

Would it be appropriate/Authentic to repaint a Railroad Pullman Brake (not a route I would like to go down if I can make do with Mk1s or anything else off the shelf). If yes are these actually Rail blue/grey or Nanking Blue/White like the Blue Pullmans diesel units.

 

Finally for now, after the Golen Arrow was withdrawn in the mid 1970s what happened to the coaches? I'm guessing that many of these are still around in preservation, or the VSOE set, but am interested if any were used on mainline chaters during the late 1970s or early 1980s in their blue/white livery?

 

Many thanks

 

Steve

 

 

[Bulleidboy]

This should get you started - http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r071.html

also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice-Simplon_Orient_Express

and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmond_British_Pullman

there is a lot of reading required to identify where the relevant coaches are now.

 

[81F]

/media/tinymce_upload/45d7a915e190b47f607f85e43527ef0f.jpg Many Thanks for the links however, these are either too early or too late for the R230  Blue Grey Golden Arrow Pullmans made by Hornby which although the picture of the NORD loco at the very and of the first link is very useful as I have a couple of Jouef versions and have always wanted to find a photo of the real loco.

 

However can anyone else tell me what I can run with the above coach. I believe the period is around 1970 to 1973?

[LCDR]

Unfortunately the Pullman cars made by Hornby are fakes!

 

The 1928 all steel cars R223, R227,  R233, R230 etc were not used on the Golden Arrow at any time, either in umber and cream or blue and grey.

 

The proper Pullmans were built in 1951 and differed from the all steel cars in the following ways. 

 

1. The underframe of the 1951 U cars had a truss and seperate underframe like the matchboarded K class cars.

 

2. The cars ran on Gresley LNER style bogies

 

3 The windows of the lavatories were rectangular, not oval.

 

These are my notes on this subject

 

GOLDEN ARROW CARS 1951 to 1972.

In 1951 for the Festival of Britain a full set of new Pullman cars was introduced for this train. Also two of the new Britannia Pacifics were sent to the Southern Region to work it. (70004 William Shakespeare and 70014 Iron Duke). 9 new Pullmans class U cars were built and were similar to the K class 1923 steel panelled wood framed cars with a trussed underframe, but ran on Gresley bogies, and had rectangular windows to the lavatory compartment. 7 of the older K cars were refurbished to act as strengthening and spares. These also had the lavatory window changed from oval to rectangular.

Aquila (U type  First Kitchen) 305 EH 1961

Aries (U type  First Kitchen) 304 EH 1961 Hornby Dublo 1960

Carina (U type  First Kitchen) 307 EH 1961 S307S

Cygnus (U type  First Parlour) 308 EH 1961 S308S

Hercules (U type  First Parlour) 309 EH 1961

Isle of Thanet(converted K type First Brake Parlour) 247 EH 1961

Minerva (converted K type First Brake Parlour) 213 EH 1961 Hornby Train Pack 2017

Orion (U type  First Kitchen) 306 EH 1961 S306S

Pegasus (U type  Bar Car) 310 EH 1961

Perseus (U type  First Parlour) 301

Phoenix (converted K type First Parlour) 302 EH 1961

Car No 34 (converted K type Second Parlour) 192 EH 1961 Hornby Train Pack 2017

Car No 35 (converted K type Second Parlour) 193

Car No 36 (converted K type Brake Second Parlour) 194 EH 1961 Hornby Train Pack 2017

Car No 208 (converted K type Brake Second Parlour) EH 1961

Car No 303 (U type  Second Kitchen)

Niobe (209), 75 & 83 EH in 1962

 

Only the number appeared on the cars when painted blue, the names were replaced by the words Golden Arrow.

S307S and S308S were for a time painted grey with a blue band round the windows similar to the final Blue Pullman livery, and opposite to the scheme eventually adopted. 

 

EH indicated converted to electric heating to work with Class HA (71) electric locomotives with the date it was converted.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Hornby "Golden Arrow" Pullman coach is a re-livery of the contemporary model of the Pullman Car "Lucille".

 

http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Lucille_Pullman.htm

 

This was, at the time, early 1970s; the model was released in 1974, being restored at Ashford, Kent, so local to Margate...

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=129

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Only the Blue Pullman units were painted "Nanking Blue".

 

All others were standard BR blue and grey colours.

 

R.230 information.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=249

[atom3624]

Didn't Wrenn make a model of this as well?

 

Al.

[Tony57]

Hi

According to my Story of Wrenn Vol 4 Wrenn produced 3 Blue and Grey Pullman coaches

W6003 2nd class Brake  S308S  This had a round toilet window

W6004 2nd Class S302S  This had a round toilet window

W6005 1st Class S301S (Golden Arrow) This had a square toilet window

 

Bit like 81F i have made a Blue and Grey Golden Arrow Train using a Lima Full Brake, 4 Triang Hornby Golden Arrow Pullmans and a Wrenn Pullman 2nd Brake. None being correct but at a distance who notices they are wrong toilet windows

[LCDR]

Nanking Blue and white was the original colours for the Diesel Pullmans. The Diesel Pullmans were eventually repainted by BR in all over rail grey with the windows surrounded by a Rail Blue panel. They also had full yellow ends.The Mark 1 Pullmans on the ECML also got this livery as did the Mark 2s on the WCML.

 

It isn't just the toilet windows that are different,  the underframe, bogies and layout of the bodywork that differs between the All Steel Queen of Scots cars that Hornby made in the 1970s and the proper 1951 issue Golden Arrow Cars, that Hornby still doesn't make!

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Wrenn Pullman Cars are, of course, the ex Hornby Dublo Super Detail Pullman Cars...

[81F]

 Many thanks all, I'll just have to keep a lookout for a Wrenn Brake coach! I must admit I did notice the gresley bogies fitted to Orion when I visited PECO.

 

Ssome years ago and had a mind to change those on a Railroad Pullman with bogies from one of the older Gresley Teak coachesto make this model  but found that the pivot points on the coach were too close so with this and the square lavatory window I abandonned the idea.

 

However, I am considering resurecting the idea by 3D printing both a window insert and bogies, but that will probably be a long time off and will depend on how sucessful other Pullman bogie projects suceed (I am currently waiting for a test print of a sixwheeled bogie for a Railroad Pullman Brake which I partially repainted to represent a white Pullman for use with my Torquay Pullman set).