21 Pin Decoder

[WelshTyneside]

If I buy a DCC Ready loco (sound/lights ready to go) - Bachmann/Hattons/etc - with a 21 pin socket which decoder is best to put in it? Hattons' website advises that their 21 pin decoder doesn't work on Hornby so which is best. I'm on Hornby DCC Select.

[Chrissaf]

Which firmware version is your Select?

 

Knowing the firmware makes a difference to the answer to your question.

 

The firmware number is the very first number to appear briefly on the Select screen when you power it up. Expect to see a number between 10 & 20.

[WelshTyneside]

It says 11 then 30. Is this correct? Do I need, somehow, to update it? Very new to DCC!

[96RAF]

V1.1 is unlikely to work with any Hatton's decoder. Contact Hornby to get a returns number for an update to v1.6 which transforms the Select. Cost £18 plus your postage to them.

 

Hattons statement about not working with Hornby kit is very likely outdated as it has been on there for years and possibly because their decoders are badge engineered other make kit which may not be NMRA compliant.

[Chrissaf]

Yes, that is a very early version 1.1 the next one up from the original release version 1.0

.

The version 1.1 is particularly buggy and may for example damage a Hornby R8247 Accessory Decoder (if you should happen to have one or more of those).

.

It is primarily these early versions up to about version 1.3 that the Hattons warning comments usually relate to.

.

You also mentioned 'sound decoders' in your original question. Sound decoders really need a controller that supports all 29 functions [F0-F28] to get the best out of them. F0-F28 support was introduced into the version 1.5 [15] Select firmware release.

.

So yes, I strongly advise that in order to give you the best chance of using non Hornby 21 Pin decoders that you have your Select firmware upgraded to the current 1.6 [16] firmware release. Version 1.6 will also add the capability to be able to write to all CVs and is a worthwhile upgrade for that alone as it totally transforms the user experience of the Select.

.

How to Upgrade.

.

The upgrade is a 'Return to Hornby' upgrade charged at £15 plus VAT (£18) plus your sending postage costs. You need a 'Returns Number' from 'Hornby Customer Services'. Contact HCS by following the 'Contact Us' link at the very bottom of the page.

.

The Select version 1.5 Main manual and the 1.6 manual addendum are downloadable from the 'Hornby Manuals' download page.

.

EDIT: Rob posted whilst I was typing my reply.

[WelshTyneside]

Thank you. So once that is all complete, can we assume (no guarantee obviously!) that a Hattons 21-pin would work?

[Chrissaf]

Replace 'would' with 'should' in your sentence.

[96RAF]

Many folk swear by Hattons decoders, some folk swear at them. Other folk have successfully sent them back for a refund.

[ColinB]

I have used all sorts especially in the 8 pin variety and they all seem to work. I suppose it depends what you want to do. I like locos with sound and the ability to switch lights on and off, hence why I use DCC. I don't tend to mess with CV values unless I have to. So it depends what you want to do. 21 pin decoders tend to be more expensive than the 8 bit varieties, so most of my 21 pin decoders are the really cheap LaisDCC ones. These seem to have an issue with their software to deal with missing signal (losing the DCC signal from the track) but on Bachmann locos they are ok, as these models have lots of pickups so you don't really get the issue. Generally I use Hornby or Zimo for all my 8 pin applications, I like Zimo and I like dealing with a particular company that sells them. Trouble is I use a Fleishmann two track or a Hornby Elite which I get the opinion are far superior in operation to the Select. Why the Select was previously so bad I cannot understand, as an ex embedded software engineer I would have thought the Select software would be the same as the Elite, with it being configured for just the one channel. It is normally cheaper to develop and maintain one version of software.

[96RAF]

The Select got a bad reputation for poor DCC signal quality - spiking under no load conditions. This improved no end as more locos were placed on track.

 

Initially the Select could only operate F0-F4, had non standard addressing for points and couldn’t alter any CVs other than address, accel and decell. It was also buggy in certain operations.

 

The firmware was updated to extend function range to F0-F9 inclusive and to amend accessory addressing to conform to NMRA norms.

 

The firmware was again updated to extend the function range to the full 29 functions - F0-F28 inclusive.

 

The latest firmware update now adds complete control over writing to CVs, although you still cannot readback values. The restricted range of addressing is still limited though - locos 1-59 and accessories 61-99.

 

That said the current Select is a far different thing to the original, which gave it the initial and now undeserved bad rep.

 

The Select would have been even more capable if the Select-a-Link cable had gone to market instead of being canned due to poor pre-order sales from retailers. This would have allowed the Select to connect to a PC and thus to be used with Railmaster.  There must be many, many Select users who would have wanted to do that had the Marketing blurb been targeted better to more directly press that point.

 

Elite is more capable as it has USB connection, can be DIY updated, has separate track, programming, boost and aux output connections, can handle long addressing, all programming modes can be used and it is NMRA warranted, not just compliant.

[WelshTyneside]

Obviously the Select isn't perfect, but seemed to me to be a really solid entry-level controller for DCC. I didn't want to spend big bucks on an Elite/computer control/various million pin decoders only to find that I wasn't getting into DCC or the hobby as a whole!

Given I have gotten into DCC/the hobby I suspect I'll eventually upgrade my control functions. I'm curious - if I choose to use RailMaster to control a DCC layout from my device, is there a place for the Elite? I've seen various layouts use an Elite with a comnputer - what is the role of the Elite in such a set up? Presumably the dials etc are rarely used as all control comes from the computer. Is the Elite just the power source?

[96RAF]

The Elite is normally used as Controller A with RM. If it is the only controller then it looks after locos and accessories (if installed).

If you also have an eLink you can either use this as the only controller or you can use Elite as Controller A for locos and eLink as Controller B for accessories.

 

The main thing is only Controller A can be used for programming. controller B is for control only not programming. So for accessories you have to program them using Controller A before connecting to the Controller B circuit.

 

Also note that if using two controllers they must be connected to separate bus. You must never connect two DCC controllers to the same bus, except in the case where one of the controllers is a Walkabout unit slaved to the master controller. This means you have a separate bus for your track and another for your accessories (points, signals, etc).

[Chrissaf]

Go back in time a few years.

.

Hornby brought the Elite to market with the optional capability to control it from a PC using RailMaster software.

.

Hornby also bought to market the RailMaster software bundled with a cut down hardware track interface [eLink]. The combined bundled package price of RailMaster & eLink being cheaper than RailMaster & Elite when purchased separately.

.

For those who had originally purchased just the Elite, they now had the option to purchase just the RailMaster software on its own to supplement their existing Elites [RailMaster on CD R8144].

.

Once the stocks of the CD version had been depleted, Hornby chose not to authorise a new CD batch run, but instead make RailMaster a within application online purchase. Something that was becoming more common within the software industry to save costs. It also means that the software in download form is always the latest version, whereas versions on CD become outdated. Downloaded within Application online purchase is still valid and supported, as well as a CD version but only when bundled with an eLink (for how long is another unknown matter, it might possibly be only whilst stocks last ... no one knows).

.

To use RailMaster you need a hardware interface with the track, whether that be eLink or Elite. They both perform the same function when being controlled by RailMaster. Both the eLink and the Elite pass the DCC Commands being generated by RailMaster software through to the track. Both eLink and the Elite provide the power to the track to operate the locomotives. Elite power is 4 amps as standard whilst eLink is only 1 amp as standard, but upgradeable to 4 amp. Both eLink and the Elite provide a 'PROG A&B' output for 'Direct Mode' programming. In this respect, both eLink and Elite are performing the same function.

.

The things that the Elite can do, that the eLink can not. The Elite as well as 'Direct Mode' programming, can program in 'Registry', 'Paged' and 'Operate' modes. The Elite can also function as a 'stand alone' controller using its 'buttons & knobs' for those times when you just want to test something out on the fly or have a quick play session without the hassle of starting up a PC and running RailMaster.

.

The unique feature in RailMaster is the 'dual A&B Controller' option, where Elite is operated as 'Controller A' within RailMaster to operate trains on the track and perform 'programming' tasks. Whilst the eLink is dedicated as 'Controller B' to operate signals and points via 'Accessory Decoders'.

.

So ... the eLink and the Elite each have their roles to play, and it is up to the 'user' to decide which features and functionality including price considerations is more beneficial to them when making a purchasing decision.