Railmaster and Elite speed Disparity

[Northome]

Is it normal that the Elite controller does not continue the RM speed of the train, ie. if I press Cruise on RM train builds up to speed nice and gradually, if I then try and increase the speed slightly with the Elite the Train comes to an ubrupt standstill until I wind up the thottle on the Elite, I would have thought the Elite should just continue from the current RM speed setting and not revert to zero.

[Chrissaf]

I don't think it's that clever.

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But do check your "railmaster.ini file" to ensure that the line:

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Elite feedback=1

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is present and add it if missing. If it is present but the value is 0, then change it to 1.

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The "railmaster.ini" file editor is opened by clicking the bluish COG icon in the bottom left of the RailMaster 'Help Screen'.

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If you do change 0 to 1 or add it as a missing line and this fixes your reported issue, then please advise back here for the benefit of others.

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Also ... what firmware does your Elite have? ... I seem to vaguely recall that Elite / RailMaster synchronisation improvements were made in version 1.43 or possibly 1.44

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[96RAF]

If feedback is enabled in the ini file you will see the RM speed setting reflected on the Elite screen throttle arc and as you alter either one the other will react accordingly. 

[Northome]

Elite feedback = 1

Full controllers =1

Alt Comms = 1

Check controller =0

Elite is 1.44   ( not done 1.45 yet as only for Saphire which I dont run any...

 

and yep, Elite is showing change of speeds etc,   

another thing I have noticed, I have 2x 158 DMU's (58 = 2 car setup and 59 =3 car set up)  If I press Cruise on RM (60mph) 59 is 18.20 secs to complete the circuit = 60 mph , 58  is 15.5 secs = 71 mph showing 60  on RM  if I then alter the throttle on the elite and bring it back to showing 60 mph on RM  59 is now completing the circuit in 12.38 secs = 90.5mph and 58 in 10.1 secs 110.3mph and as stated RM is saying 60mph.... as said as soon as I touch the throttle on the elite the trains just come to an abrupt holt speed notches on the elite screen reduce to zero and RM throttle drops, then bring the speed back up on the elite but the train are going twice as fast as they do on RM at same stated speed ???

[Northome]

Quick side note I have tried all configerations as suggested by Chris in a previous post and all drop connection to elite apart from "check controller=0" and "Alt comms=1" is the only one that stays connected ??

[96RAF]

Give it a go with Scale Speed ticked and unticked in the basic setup panel. There will be a difference in speed but the abrupt stop upon take control is likely a bug.

 

The disparity twixt the two DMUs is probably just wear and tear, stiffness of mechanisms, weight difference, etc 

[Northome]

Hi Rob,   I understand regarding wear and tear etc, however with RM switched off and just using the elite controller, time facters are as follows.

My Track length =6.560mtr

59 (3 car) at full speed 8.38 secs, = 132.9mph convert to Hornby Factor (6.274mtr) 8.0secs

58 (2car) at full speed 8.12 secs, = 137.2mph convert to Hornby Factor 7.8secs

RM scale speed switched off, 59 at cruise = 17.6secs = 63.3 mph 

RM scale speed switched on, 59 at cruise = 18.05secs = 61.7 mph

If scale speed off, full speed times are very similar between Elite and RM at around the 8 secs give or take .2 or so.

Scale speed on 59 = 13.5 (82.5)  58 = 11.6 (96) with RM full speed, Elite at 3/4 throttle arc and will take trains faster if increase the speed (after the initial slow/stop thing) 

both cv5 are at 0 (default)  both have cv3 at 35 and cv4 at 8. and are reasonably equal on accel and decel.

[96RAF]

Scale speed is RM attempt to make speeds realistic. RM cruise speed is not the max speed it is just a chosen notch on the speed slider stick realistic for that class of loco, a bit like holding the speed limit on a car,  hence why you can make a loco go faster than the set cruise.

 

There always has been a difference twixt scale speed on and off whether using cruise/shunt or straight manual throttle. Something to do with algorithms in RM, which are beyond my ken.

 

You say CV5 is set at default value of zero. CV5  is V-max or top speed. If set at zero the loco should not even move. If you mean CV2 - V-kickstart, then zero is an acceptable value. Not all decoders support adjustment of these CVs.

[Northome]

I think I should just give up with the speed differences with the trains, and just run them and ignore what speed RM says its doing, its just really annoying when you try and take control of the train from RM to either the Elite or the Select that the speed drops to 0 and you have to wind the throttle up again to continue at a similar speed to what it was previously doing.

The other question ? If using the Select as walkabout connected to the Elite with cable, If I press cruise on RM it says 60 (fine) if I then bring the train to a standstill with the Select, Elite reduces the bars to 0 however RM still shows throttle at 3/4 and train doing 42 mph ????? very strange, If I do the same thing with the Elite, Throttle reduces on both elite and RM to 0.  !! do I need to set controller 2 or anything in the ini file to recognise the select as walkabout ???? or is this just normal ?

Also regards CV5 all my decoders are set at factory default 0 which is apparently "off" or equal to "255" whether they be NCE,Gaugemaster, Bachmann, Lias, Hattons, Hornby tts or soundtraxx. I only tend to play with cv2,3 and 4  and not 5 or 6.

[96RAF]

There is no additional setup to be done when using the Select as a Walkabout. The Elite and Select effectively work as a single controller.

 

I still think the odd speed to zero throttle behaviour is an RM bug. You should report it in.

 

You have taught me something about CV5 - I never knew value zero was effectively off. I must read the NMRA spec again.

[Northome]

Ha Ha thats rich coming from you Rob, I tend to rely on yourself and Chris to sort all my problems (lol). Nice to know i'm "not as daft as I am cabbage looking", as My Mum use to say.

Anyway back to the issue in hand.... I didn't think I needed to do anything in the ini file but thought I would just check,  Strange how feedback to RM is correct from the Elite but not from the Select... 

I think RM would be far better for not having the MPH display as this just causes more confusion/fustration as proved from all the above, If there was no MPH read out in RM myself (and probably many others) would know no difference.

 

Just going completely off subject, I would like to discuss with (you Rob) an idea I have been playing with regards Point switching Relays and in relation to your idea using a rotary switch as explained on your "Robs Rails" site, however I am not sure whether it is a discussion for a Forum or Private, It is just an idea I have and would like your comments as to whether it would work or not. ??  If I post on the forum where would you suggest it would best be placed, it would be both manual and DCC compatible.

Cheers

Rob.

[96RAF]

We can all learn stuff Rob. At my age trying not to forget what I already know is the problem.

 

Correct feedback improves with uptodate firmware on both Select and Elite. Select screen of course does not have a ‘speed’ indicator like the Elite has and the speed knob is not motorised so it cannot follow the feedback, but its as good as it gets.

 

I will crank up the RM PC later today and hook a Select on as Walkabout to the Elite as Cont A, with eLink as Cont B and see if I can reproduce your problem.

 

We can talk over your point switching suggestion by email initially or it can be open discussion on the forum - if it will largely have a DCC element then park it in that section. If its mainly analogue with a hint of DCC then the General section may be more appropriate. It doesn’t really matter as its easily moved if it developes more towards the one than the other. The benefit of open discusion is Chris,  Flashbang and others will add to the mix and their input is invaluable.

[96RAF]

As promised I have set up RM with Elite as Cont A, Select attached in Walkabout mode and eLink as Cont B. The loco is a Sapphire decoder in an ESU test rig on address 03. (Which ran out of fuel half way through testing - Grrr)

 

My ini file is thus:

Elite F/back = 1

Full cont = 1

Animations = 1 (not sure what this does but I turned it on in case it affected the slider reaction)

AC = 1

AC2 = 0

CC = 1

CC2 = 0

Connection is stable on all controllers.

 

I tried 2 scenarios - first with Scale Speed deselected and secondly with Scale Speed selected. There were some differences in expanded throttle slider reaction but the main fault is evident in either mode.

 

I can set Shunt or Cruise on the expanded throttle in RM and the Elite screen echos the speed. If I grab control using either Elite or Select. in either case the test rig motor responds but RM expanded throttle slider either does not respond or is very slow to respond. Any controller can stop the motor and all indicators show stopped. With Scale Speed off there was a blip in motor speed (but no change seen at the slider) as I took control but the motor recovered immediatelty to the previous set speed. It did not fully stop nor require a manuall restart like the OP reported.

 

If I throttle up from either Elite or Select the speed shows on Elite screen arc and RM reacts to match. If I toggle control between RM, Elite and Select then we get back to the RM expanded throttle slider not reacting, although the test rig motor always responds. Obviously the Select speed knob stays where it was last left and some motor speed change will be noticed as you take control back from that point and adjust to the other controller levels.

 

There is definitely some sort of a bug in RM which is slightly different depending if Scale Speed is on or off.

Bug reported to HRMS and this is their immediate reply

If you are controlling the locos from the controller themselves (not using the RailMaster throttles) then the scale speed system is ignored.  Scale speed only works when using RailMaster as this using the loco speed profiles from the database, which the DCC controllers cannot do. Whilst there is some feedback from the Elite to RailMaster it is advisable to settle on using one or the other for controlling loco speeds, either the RailMaster throttles or the Elite knob.

Make of it all what you will, but it doesn't explain the fundamental discrepancy in lack of follow up.

Rob

[Northome]

Well what can I say, thats a real thorough test and many thanks for that.

It does seem to be a bug in the system and give or take a couple of minor issues, you come up with the same scenarios as myself, I must admit the train coming to a standstill does not happen every time, (more when shunting at low speed) If I run the "Loco only" there tends to be only a slight "glitch" in speed and is easy to compensate for, however the abrupt slowing/stopping tends to be more pronouced with running a rake of carriages, maybe to do with the load on the loco ?,  All my scenarios are with RM Expanded throttle window but are still showing same in colapsed throttle.

 

Maybe its as Chris states "Its just not that cever" lol.

HMRS response is interesting, It sort of negates the use of the select as a walkabout and therefore asks the question "why have it".   Incidentally the wireless mouse does not show any of these issues, but then again that is basicaly talking direct to RM I suppose.

I think the conclusion is maybe just one of those things we have to live with !!

[Chrissaf]

The HRMS reply, makes perfect sense to me and replicates what I meant when I said:

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"I don't think it's that clever."

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I do have a theory as to why it doesn't do what you expect, but although the theory is in my head, it would take reams of text to try and explain it. And since it is just a theory not worthwhile documenting.

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Personally, I don't see the observation as a fault or a bug, just a limitation of designed functionality.

[Northome]

As per normal Chris, you are probably correct, I think I am just expecting too much of the system. and we will just have to live with its little idiosyncrasies.

 

many thanks for your help with the previous problem "reading cv's" etc. it was much appreciated. (even though you did tell me off) lol.

 

Think I will start on my other dilemma now regarding "point switching" but will post this one in "General" as suggested by Rob. look forward to your thoughts and input !!

 

Thanks again

Robert

[Chrissaf]

....(even though you did tell me off)....

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I had to look back to remind myself what the comment above related to. I think that might possibly be a bit harsh. I quote below part of my follow-up comment.

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"Absolutely no apology needed. I doubt that anybody else would have thought to mention the LED either."