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Are these Locos either Crimson or Maroon???

JJ73

By JJ73
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JJ73 Grand Master

JJ73

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Just going through the Colours of my Locos...Just had a look on 'Bing' - couldn't decide either my 3 locos are either Crimson or Maroon (& don't say Burgundy either!!!  😆)...What colour would you say???...

 

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JJ73 Grand Master

JJ73

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Hello Drew

Thank you  😀 Well If youy want to know the LMS 0-6-0 No. 7414 came in a R1144 Night Mail Set - Sadly Hornby don't sell it any more but if you Search for R1144 I found quite a few for sale online!!!

 

The W. C. R. 0-4-0 came in a R1157 Westcoast Highlander Set - again Sadly Hornby don't sell it any more but if you search for R1144 - I found a few for sale online

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Postman Prat Grand Master

Postman Prat

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Hi LC&DR

 

I like the photos. Having seen Princess Liz in BR and LMS liveries I'm sure the LMS livery is that dark colour as on the Streamliner is similar to my City of Lancaster.

 

On the other hand the BR Maroon shown on the freshly painted Mk 1 is very close to the colour used on theBR locos.

 

Just to 'muddy the waters' you do have the difference in colour on BR ones. Just look at the difference in colour on EWS ones on a nice bright, sunny day, like today and that on a less bright day. The only Ducess of Ham photos I have were taken in the NRM on a bright day and she looks brighter than in your photo.

 

My memory is 'as above' and you've got to consider that. 

 

You're lucky you don't have this problem with Green trains.  (Ha ha)      😆

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JJ73 Grand Master

JJ73

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@ L. C. :- Thank you for the Photos  😀 I do quite like the 4-2-2??? (Can't quite see) the No. 673 - I've noticed it is a M. R. Loco - They may be a chance that it used to ran along the M. T. - b/c the M. T. used to be a Midland Rail Line!!!

 

@ Drew :- Np probs - oh I forgot to say about the 1000 - it is a Bachmann Branch-line Loco!!!

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LCDR Grand Master

LCDR

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The perception of colour is a fickle pursuit, everyone will see it differently, and the type of lighting will also have an effect as PP correctly identifies, The difference between bright sunshine, overcast weaather, and various types of indoor lighting all cause colours to appear different, and colour film will change colours too. I suspect too that different makes of digital cameras will see colours slightly differently although I don't know much about this. (I have been scanning some of my old transparencies this week using a cheap scanner, which gives them all a blue cast, so I have just set up my 'posh' scanner which needed new software to work with my Windows 10 computer, and I have only just got round to doing it after well over a year, and it definately 'sees' colour more accurately than the cheapo one.) 

 

One think people may overlook is reflected light and its effect on paint shades. Green foliage in bright sunlight will reflect green on to a passing locomotive boiler, and the top of the boiler especially if it is polished will reflect the blue sky.

 

Colour also changes with age, look at the two Mark 1s pictured above and the difference between the far one which came out of the paint shop that morning, and the near one which has been in traffic for at least three years stored in the open in all weathers, is remarkable. Sunlight will quickly fade almost any colour.

 

One of the worst colour matching devices is memory. 

 

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malB Collaborator

malB

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Interesting reading this thread. In so much as the Crimson/Maroon use by the Midland Railway, L.M.S. and British Railways were all mixed to the same specification introduced by the Midland. many folk though swore blind that "No! they're all different shades." How much was down to the change from using predominatly organic/vegatable based pigments, to mineral  based pigments is hard to say. There was a feature in Backtrack many years ago about paint/colours used by the railways. It made the above remark about the crimson/marron colours and that the Research & Development people at Derby had quite a selecion of panels that were painted with various types and colours of paint that were kept outside, to see how they weathered/reacted to the varied weather conditions here in the UK.

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naugytrax Enthusiast

naugytrax

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The Postman mentioned EWS maroon. I've been committed for decades to using Floquil for repainting my stock, even though it's becoming very hard to get (and expensive) in many colours since manufacture stopped a few years ago. I recently got a bottle of Wisconsin Central Maroon, which I imagine to be identical to EWS maroon given that the WC was a major owner of EWS. EWS maroon looks to me (in photos) as being awfully close to BR maroon, and by dirtying the paint a little I get what seems to be a convincing shade. Any thoughts?

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JJ73 Grand Master

JJ73

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@ L. C. :- True - very True!!!  😆 The Sun, printers scanners, etc will change the colour a bit!!!

 

@ naugytrax :- I think what L.C. says above really - Weathering, the sun - etc will change the colours a bit!!!

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LCDR Grand Master

LCDR

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I think what MalB is saying is that despite the paint specification being the same so far as the proportion of pigment being used the different types of material being used to create the pigments may indeed affect the lustre and colour. The way it is applied and the amount of 'clear' varnish may also have an effect.

 

The Monastral blue used by BR in 1965 was applied as a semi-matt spray and looked dull and lifeless almost immediatelky especially as applied to non-corridor stock, including DMUs and EMUs.It got dirty very quickly however in the next few years the paint was changed to a gloss finish, and Rail grey with white lining added around the window area which lifted it considerably. 

 

The same happened slightly earlier in the 60s with Maroon paint used on steam stock. and again it was the non-corridor stock suffered the most. 

 

I suspect that whatever a modeller or model manufacturer uses it will look wrong to somebody. 

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atom3624 Grand Master

atom3624

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Google isn't that much of a friend here ...

  • Crimson

    Crimson is a strong, red color, inclining to purple. It originally meant the color of the kermes dye produced from a scale insect, Kermes vermilio, but the name is now sometimes also used as a generic term for slightly bluish-red colors that are between black and rose.

  • Maroon

    Maroon (US & UK mÉ™-ROON, Australia mÉ™-ROHN) is a dark brownish red color which takes its name from the French word marron, or chestnut.

    The Oxford English Dictionary describes it as "a brownish crimson or claret color."

    In the RGB model used to create colors on computer screens and televisions, maroon is created by turning down the brightness of pure red to about one half. Maroon is the complement of teal.

 

We all know that the official Midland and LMS colouration is known as Crimson Lake.

We know that pigments can be mistaken, not matter how well mixed, in haste perhaps, so the hue may have varied slightly out of the paint shops, perhaps not or they may be strapped to the smokebox door of a Coronation on the Royal Scot for the full duration to Glasgow!

 

What is true is after a short time, with the effects of soot, weather, washdowns (too much Thomas the Tank Engine here perhaps?  !!!) the original precise hue won't remain for more than perhaps 6 months or so.

 

I fondly remember my visits to Bressingham Gardens in the 70's, seeing amongst others the 6100 Royal Scot and 6233 Duchess of Sutherland, and definitely remember blasting through the woods on the footplate of DoS ... but many say the CL was too red ... not a correct and representative hue.

I think it - and 6100 Royal Scot - looked great in the CL they used, with all of that gold leaf!!

 

Al.

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JJ73 Grand Master

JJ73

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@atom :- 

Google isn't that much of a friend here ...

Yeah I found that (apart from I used Bing - but they both do the same job here!!!) & that was why I was asking - just was interested in what you folk would say!!!

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malB Collaborator

malB

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In reply to LC. Of course it's not just the differance with the "ingrediants", it also down to individauls eye sight and how you or I percieve the colours. As collectivally we all have variations in our eyesight and health.........The classic case being folk who are "colour blind" especially the red/green variety, which lead people being failed on health grounds for footplate and other such critical railway positions.

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malB Collaborator

malB

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I have heard the theory that Stroudley's "Improved Engine Green" came about because he had a colour vision problem.  Can't offer any evidence but it does make one wonder.

I've heard that tale too. Plus his reply being: "When it's an improvement on engine green!" When he saw the colour of the paint.

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