The point of the whole problem is this. POINTS!

[AndyThomas]

Hi to everyone again.  This may be old hat to many of you but points on my layout are driving me mad and there is so much information and miss information that I dont really know where to go.  I have a collection of about 50 trains now from theTriang era going on to Triang hornby and then hornby and also a couple of airfix and bachman. Some run fine over most of the layout but then come to a halt on one particular point.  Other trains run fine over the bad point but dont run on other points that train one ran over ok.  Some others derail on points that both the first 2 trains ran fine on and so on and so on.  So as with many people we go online looking for information and come back even more confused.

So.  Now I have mainly got standard size PECO points with the push across changer.  Are Hornby points any better or do they work just the same?  As a necomer to model railways courtsey of my Grandsons tremendous enthusiasm I have accumulated quite a selection of points with buying job lots of stuff so I start to wonder if they are being sold because they never worked properly. Which points work best with hornby / triang trains and where did or do Peco enter the market place and fit into all this.

I watched a very clever guy turning down wheels because he said the profile was wrong. And then the discussion went on about trains catching the bottom of the rail holder which in turn lifts them off the track causing them to lose the electric connection and from there onto the wheels are too close together which is why they catch the frog. Does anyone have some definative info on point problems and a preference of hornby over peco points??

Many thanks to all.   Andy

[morairamike]

Firstly welcome. 

Points can be troublesome.  Various reasons for point problems. The back to back measurement of the wheels need to be within tolerance, if too wide then the wheels will ride up on the frog, that's the triangular bit on the points where the two tracks meet. If too narrow then the wheels can fall inwards off the rails. If the loco has a front bogie then that too can catch, ride up or foul the locos own valve gear. Some older locos have deeper flanges than others and they can catch on later track

All my points are Peco electro frog as I am running DCC trains but my track is Hornby set track code 100 or flexi track. 

Points also need to be FLAT along as well as across them otherwise derailments can occur. 

You say you have a job lot of track, take each point and lay them on a flat surface. Put those that are not flat to one side. If you find you have enough flat ones use them first. 

Others will be along with other input.

[Sailbadthesinner]

There is definitely a problem running certain locos on modern Hornby points.  

Several of my locomotives 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 types ranging from brand new to 46 years old have a problem crossing new Hornby points at low speed.

The problem is not with the loco, it's wheels or pickups it is simply that the slot in the insulated frog section of the points is too shallow.  It lifts one wheel and tilts the loco so the other wheel on the same side loses contact.  I can even rock the loco back and forth once it is stranded on the frog and see the wheels lifting.

I measured various new Hornby points and the slot varies from 1.08 to 1.14mm deep.The flange on various Hornby locos that have a problem are 1.32 to 1.40mm.  I measured the flanges on some non Hornby locos that work fine and they are 0.74 to 1.20mm.The slots on some 40+ year old Hornby points are 1.89 to 1.98mm deep.  

The solution is to file the slots deeper (or buy non Hornby points).  I'm considering building a jig and milling out the slots so I can do them quickly, accurately and repeatably.  I may even offer the service to others (I'm told not every one has a CNC mill) .

I haven't been able to get a straight answer to why Hornby are now selling points that aren't compatible with their own locos?

[Bulleidboy]

I think part of the problem will be the age of what you are using. Over  the years not only have the flanges on the wheels changed but so has the track. If you have bought a job-lots of track, it could be a mixture of all ages and type. The track Hornby are selling today will be compatible with the loco's that have been produced over a number of years. Many modellers will change the wheels on older stock.   I assume all of your Peco points are Code 100 - which is compatible with Hornby track - Code 75 would not be.  I use Peco Code 75 Electrofrog points and they are first class. I do notice one or two of my twenty year old loco's may ride-up slightly when going over a Code 75 point - but then they are "finescale" (the points). Over the years things have progressed as modellers want finer detail - which doesn't always work well with older stock. 

Given a choice, I don't think anyone would choose Hornby points over Peco - except possibly on cost - and this is not a cheap hobby.

[Jimbo1707820979]

A possible way out of this problem might be to test all points before laying the track. I have found quite a lot of variation by setting up a length of track on a table, connecting an R8250 controller via croco clips,

then adding CLEANED points and another length of track. Use a spirit level.

One can then sit comfortably in a chair and test various locos over the points. Noting down the performances of the locos. Not a foolproof method, I agree, because of the shortness of the track. But I found it useful. The R8250 chosen because it trips out easily. Perhaps surprisingly I had quite good results from Hornby Dublo points ! Meanwhile man has flown to the moon !! 🤔

[AndyThomas]

Thanks guys and gals.  Plenty to go at again but nothing definative its all trial and error which is the infuriating bit of the problem.  Excuse the PUN but the point I was making is that one can do all of the above and then buy a train that defies logic and works on all points except one out of the 25 or so on the layout.  I would be interested for some more info on enlarging (deepening) the frog.  Does anyone have a magic way of doing this (apart from a CNC machine).  I can see a needle file being very hit and miss bearing in mind the way the file will clog up quite quickly. How about a hand held hacksaw blade? O could they even be melted??

Andy

[Rog RJ]

Go with the needle file.  It takes a bit of time but is less likely to cause damage.  I have a needle file that is a rectangular flat file and only has teeth on the narrow edges and is smooth on the wide parts which is ideal.  it removes the plastic from the bottom of the frog without damaging the sides.  Avoid removing too much material.

[locojoe]

Hi Andy my advise  is stay away from second hand points, peco express points are  really good  

Peco electro frog are the best buy but more expensive.Hornby points  my experience are the waste 

of money and have to much plastic on them.

[AndyThomas]

Hi again.  I dont own any express points but I can see they are obviously longer than the standard version.  What curve do you have to use to return the line to straight. I.E. for a parrallel siding.

Andy

[The Doc]

HI Andy,

 

I've had some similar problems like you with job lots of second hand points.  Often they will have been taken off a layout in a hurry and will have been bent, or the baseboard they were atached was warped so they bent too.  I reckon at least 50% of points I have bought "on the cheap" have been a false economy - never again!  I am grdually replacing dodgy poounts with brand new ones as finances allow. 

 

In answer to your question about Peco "Express" points (Peco don't actually call them this) and what curves you need to use with them - they are the Streamline range and are designed for use with flexible track rather than a range of set track pieces.  If you want really smooth and realistic running then Streamline points and flexitrack are the way forward.  But they are slightly more difficult to use, requiring you to cut lengths of track to just the right length, trimming the odd sleeper here and there and curving the track slightly.  So tracklaying takes a lot longer.

 

Despite these advantages of the Peco range, you will still have problems with Triang and Triang hornby era locos because, as you have discovered, the flanges are too thick and too deep.  

[AndyThomas]

Hi again everyone. Thanks for all the input. I have bought a batch of second had streamline points so will be having a change round on the layout.  I will obviously find out when they arrive but can anyone advise if 2 of these streamline points join up to create a parrallel track the same as the smaller points do??

Andy

[ColinB]

I have only just read this post, I too have had a lot of issues with points, I also have some reasonably old locos I run. The things I have had issues with are:

On the older locos especially back to back wheel spacing, tender driven locos the centre undriven wheels not moving up properly. Sometimes some of the points (I use Peco electrofrog) if not supported properly warp, especially with the heat, in one case one turnout was 2 mm lower that the other meaning the point was not flat. The approach to the points was not flat and if you use fexible track had a kink at the point junction where if was trying to ping out (extra pinning cures this). Base board flexing beneath the point. Assuming it is not back to back spacing, is arm myself with thin cork underlay slivers, and pack bits of the track until it stops derailing. Then once you have figured which part of the track needs sorting out, implement a more permanemt solution. Oh I forgot on some locos, the front bogie causes lots of issues. Peco haven't really changed the design of their streamline point since the 1980's since I first started, so locos after this should run reasonably ok. Hornby points from what I have seen are similar to Peco Settrack points so most loco should work with them. Even my Wrenns work ok over most of my points.

[AndyThomas]

Thanks for all the help everyone. Still have not fitted the express points but have noticed that since laying the track 18 months ago  the points have actually lifted quite a bit.  I tried to get away with not pinning down the actual points in case they broke when I was lifting them in the future but can see now that although all was layed flat origianlly that in a relatively short space of time all the points have lifted. So my job for the weekend is to pin down the actrual points and relive some of the frogs as well.

Many thanks

Andy

[The Duke 71000]

Realistically this is a classic example of thinking the internet is a solution to model railway woes !  

 

The ONLY real solution to getting into the very complex field of model railways is to join a good model railway club.

 

You can learn about all the pitfalls to avoid before you fall into them. Other more experienced club members can answer all your questions. Demonstrate how to do it. Advise on which products are more suited to your needs. And basically save you a fortune !!!  

 

But most importantly you can go from being a novice to an expert in a much shorter period of time. Mix with like minded people, which helps increase the enjoyment of your hobby.  It opens doors to such things as participation with exhibition layouts at exhibitions, and a whole lot more you never even knew about.......

 

The Duke 71000