hunting for the duchess of montrose

[huntingtheduchess]

Hi, apologies, I'm totally out of my depth with this, but I'm trying to find out if I can trace my dad's old train. It has a wonderful but sad backstory and although I've since bought him a 00 Duchess (of Montrose) I'd really like to see if I can trace the original one he had... which is one giant task as I don't want him to know, and he didn't know the serial number of the one he had. So, question being, am I asking this in the right place?? and, is there any posibility of being able to find out which one he had from the info i currently know. I know it was purchased in Trowbridge, Wilts in a shop called Moore and Bush some time before my dad cam out of hospital in December 1958. When I say purchased, it was swapped on xmas day by the the toy shop owner because the one originally purchesed (I forget the name of it) didn't work, so the lovely man swapped the one purchased for the Duchess... the story was sent to Hornby as the train was in guarantee and from what I've been told, the company phoned my grampy to apologise and return the original engine, now fixed... and was tol to keep the Duchess as a token.. I don't know if this story can be traced.... without the serial number, I am a bit stuck, but you guys might know of a way that I don't... Many thanks

[Chrissaf]

This forum is not monitored by Hornby personnel. It is totally 'user generated content'. The best you can hope for, is that the product history experts on this forum can narrow down the possible loco stock code number based upon a Duchess with a date between 1950? and 1958.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[SRmike]

judging by the age you have suggested, this is a HD 3 rail model. It would be EDL12 which was produced between 1958 and 1961. You will need 3 rail track where the loco picks up from the centre rail using a 'shoe' under it. It will cause ashort if put on  modern 2 rail track.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

HD, in this case being Hornby Dublo.

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The Duchess of Montrose is a fairly common model.

Some are now in better condition than others.

Price would depend on the condition.

It was also sold in a train set.

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[Going Spare]

To elaborate: the Hornby-Dublo range has no real connection with the current Hornby company which has its origins in Tri-ang made by Rovex in Margate at that time whereas Hornby-Dublo was produced by Meccano Ltd. in Liverpool.  Unlike plastic Hornby models, Hornby-Dublo locos mainly had die-cast metal bodies and tin-plate tender bodies.  Duchess of Montrose locos are quite plentiful on the secondhand market.

[SRmike]

You are not strictly right 'going spare'. As you said, Hornby Dublo trains were produced by Meccano. They went bust in 1960s. The 3rail models were discontinued and their 2rail  models were purchased by Wrenn. They were purchased by Triang and the models sold under the Triangle Hornby Brand. These were later branded as Hornby  as it is today. Hornby acknowledged this when they produced  the current Duchess of Athol.

[Going Spare]

SRmike, you may strictly be correct but, as I recall (but memory may be wrong, I admit), very few 'Hornby-Dublo' products saw the light of day under their new owners other than acquired stock being sold off, just the Hornby name being carried forward.    

[Ducking Giraffe]

There's loads of them (Hornby Dublo Three rail duchess of montrose) on ebay right now, but I'd say its impossible to find the actual one 62 years on. Usually when bought or sold they don't come with a provenance like paintings or other fine art as there's simply so many made - usually thousands. When I buy stuff I'm not too bothered about the back story, and I guess its the same for most people.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Briefly...

Meccano Ltd was purchased by Lines Bros.

in 1964.

Lines Bros. traded as Tri-ang.

There were three brothers, and three Lines make a Triangle...

The Tri-ang Railways brand was originally the separate company Rovex, which was purchased by Lines Bros. and marketed as Tri-ang Railways from 1952.

G &R Wrenn was another company purchased by Lines Bros.

In 1965, the Hornby Dublo name, and some existing stock, was "Amalgamated" with Tri-ang Railways to form Tri-ang Hornby Model Railways.

The HD overhead electric loco was modified, and fitted to a Tri-ang Railways style chassis.

This being, I believe, the only rolling stock model to be properly incorporated into the TH range.

The HD Through/ Terminus station kit tooling was, for a time, used at Margate, and moulded in Tri-ang Railways colours, as used on the TR second series buildings of 1962. This being, I believe, the only other HD item to be made at Margate.

Later, after much consideration, some of the former HD tooling was transferred to G &R Wrenn. These models being marketed as Tri-ang Wrenn.

When Lines Bros. Went into liquidation, the Tri-ang brand name was sold off separately from Rovex at Margate.

Unable to use the Tri-ang brand, Rovex instead used Hornby Railways as the brand name.

Mr. Wrenn purchased his company back, and also obtained further ex. HD tools, etc.

Wrenn Railways being the brand name.

After some changes in ownership, Hornby Railways became just Hornby.

The company being Hornby Hobbies.

Any errors are my dodgy memory!

[LCDR]

Reading the original post it occurs to me that there were two model locomotives involved, the one that was bought originally of a type no longer remembered and the Duchess of Montrose that was supplied as a replacement until the original returned from repair. In the event the replacement Duchess was gifted by Hornby as compensation for the inconvenience, which was typical of their generosity. So are we looking for the Duchess as the header states, or the original locomotive type unstated?

 

In 1958 Hornby Dublo offered the following types -

 

EDL17 0-6-2T class N2  in BR lined black numbered 69567,

 

EDL18 2-6-4T class 4MT in BR lined black numbered 80054

 

EDLT20 4-6-0 Castle class in BR lined green with tender, numbered 7013 and named Bristol Castle, this one was first sold in 1957.

 

EDL12 4-6-2 Duchess class in BR lined green with tender numbered 46232 and named Duchess of Montrose, sold like this since 1953 and last sold in 1961

 

EDL11 4-6-2 A4 class in BR lined green with tender numbered 60016 and named  Silver King, first sold in 1953 and last sold in 1958.

 

and in 1958 two new models were announced . LT25 2-8-0 8F class with tender in plain black numbered 48158 and the first diesel L30 English Electric Bo-Bo in green numbered D8000.

 

All of these were made in very large numbers and most were on sale until 1960/1961 when most were retooled and sold as both two  and three rail pick-up versions with new numbers and where appropriate new names. In the case of the Duchess it became a City and in maroon livery.

 

Every model locomotive and train set came with a guarantee slip printed on blue or mauve paper on which was printed the serial number (actually a rubber stamp) . It was rare for people selling these on to include the slip, but a few do survive.

 

The thing that will make this hunt exceedingly difficult is that huge numbers of these models were sold both in the UK and abroad. Hornby Dublo was a world renowned product.  Added to that the Meccano Service Department in Binns Road Liverpool who had a tremendous reputation for excellent service closed in 1965 when the company folded, Whether their records survived is doubtful. I doubt whether many of the employees will still be alive today, if at all. I also think it is highly unlikely these records would have been transferred to the Tri-ang factory in Margate after the take over and are likely to have been recycled, remember everything was on paper which takes up a lot of room.

 

The only glimmer of hope might be the Hornby Railway Collectors Association, who rescued some of the Hornby records after the factory closed. https://hrca.net   but I would not hold out a lot of hope. 

 

[Andrew-1246907]

judging by the age you have suggested, this is a HD 3 rail model. It would be EDL12 which was produced between 1958 and 1961. You will need 3 rail track where the loco picks up from the centre rail using a 'shoe' under it. It will cause ashort if put on modern 2 rail track.

 

 

Hi

As a novice, I also naively bought one of these fine looking locos. And as you say, it causes a short and won't run. Is it possible to remove the shoe and make it compatible for a modern 2 track?

[RDS]

@Andrew

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[96RAF]

Anyone who was working at the company in those days would likely be in their 80’s now. You could write to Montana in Marketing to see if they know or could find out anything. Their email address is in the Contact Us link at the bottom of every page.

[threelink]

@Andrew

Technically it is possible to 2 rail a 3 rail loco but it is a fearsome difficult thing to do and will devalue the loco. I would suggest selling it and putting the proceeds towards a 2 rail version. Alternatively you might like to buy some 3 rail track and enjoy watching the loco perform as it was intended to do. The old 3 rail stuff has a charm of it's own - I inherited a steamer trunk full and have added a few bits and bobs over the years. I don't have a layout but once in a blue moon get it all out, lay down some track and have a bit of fun. The engineering of the 3 rail stuff is the highest you will find. With a drop of oil every now and then, replacement brushes from time to time and the occasional replacement collector shoe HD 3 rail locos will last for ever.